Dutch Boyd Melt Down in Razz

[dogmeat]

I can't make this post without sounding like I am bashing Dutch, and I honestly have respect for anybody that can make the final table of a WSOP Championship, but what happened in the Razz tournament? I've never been at a table like that, so I am honestly asking - WTF? Did he just have a total melt down or what? I do play razz, and obviously I am not of his calliber, but he was calling with hands that were very questionable. Can somebody that has more experience than me answer me why this occured. I realize it got short handed, but still....What am I missing?

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Dynasty]

He choked. Dutch loosened up his playing standards far too much. The simplest evidence of this was that he played two split pairs (Jacks and 9's) on 3rd street. It was rather shocking to see it.

[37offsuit]

Remember that you're only seeing key hands. Cloutier likely played an aggressive style and was chipping away at Boyd's stack. In any limit game when you're heads up, sooner or later you have to pick hands and go with them. You can't keep going half way and then tossing your hand away. You'll definately lose then, even if you win a pot or two.

Cloutier caught some fantastic cards. Made wheel on sixth, made 7 on sixth that improved and then a 6.

It's really easy, looking at both player's cards, to know what the best play is, a lot different at the table. Especially in Razz where you can have first four to a 6 and end up with three pair.

It was easy, too, for the "crew" member to guess "TJ made his wheel on sixth" and be right. On the rail you can see monsters and if you're wrong, you're not mucking the winning hand with most of your tournament chances in the pot getting slid to your opponent.

The hands that Boyd was drawing to were good ones, heads up. They were the ones he decided to take a stand with.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember that you're only seeing key hands. Cloutier likely played an aggressive style and was chipping away at Boyd's stack. In any limit game when you're heads up, sooner or later you have to pick hands and go with them. You can't keep going half way and then tossing your hand away. You'll definately lose then, even if you win a pot or two.

Cloutier caught some fantastic cards. Made wheel on sixth, made 7 on sixth that improved and then a 6.

It's really easy, looking at both player's cards, to know what the best play is, a lot different at the table. Especially in Razz where you can have first four to a 6 and end up with three pair.

It was easy, too, for the "crew" member to guess "TJ made his wheel on sixth" and be right. On the rail you can see monsters and if you're wrong, you're not mucking the winning hand with most of your tournament chances in the pot getting slid to your opponent.

The hands that Boyd was drawing to were good ones, heads up. They were the ones he decided to take a stand with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be rude but this analysis has some key errors in it. Most glaring is your last statement. The hands Boyd was drawing to were not good ones. They were hands in which TJ obviously had him board locked. You could've covered up TJ's hole cards and I still would've been sitting there going wtf are you doing dutch. It is a key mistake in Razz to continue in a hand when you obviously beaten and don't have a draw to a hand that actually has a chance to beat your opponent. Dutch was just on tilt and was missing the fact that TJ had him clearly beat. Dutch was continuously chasing with draws, that even if he made would only give him a 2nd best hand, and this wasnt just when it got to heads up it was almost the whole final table.

You say that in limit games you need to pick hands and go with them and you can't just go half way. I ask you why would you continue with a hand where you are clearly beat? You need to save those bets and keep some ammunition for a hand where you have him beat.

[jacksfull]

I agree with dogmeat. Dutch is a very good player, but like most top pros, he doesn't have as much experience with Razz as with other games.

I understand that we didn't see all of the hands between him and T.J., but I think he had some trouble reading T.J.'s board. Normally, you throw out the highest cards and paired cards and assume that your opponent is drawing to the highest card that is left. I think that Dutch assumed that T.J. was drawing to one of these higher cards. Perhaps T.J. did something that caused this, but T.J doesn't strike me as somebody that would do a lot of bluffing in a Razz game.

In any case, when you're short-stacked in stud, it's tough to fold a hand when you've got a lot of your money out on the table, so I don't fault him for calling some of those seventh street bets. But clearly, it was not Dutch's finest hour.

[Annie Duke]

I personally found the Razz event to be incredibly interesting to watch. The thing that interested me most is that in Razz the percentages that ESPN puts up are the most transparent to the players involved in the hands. This is because the boards and dead/live cards are right there in front of you and it is a much more transparent read than in, say, hold'em or 7-stud. This was evidenced by Scott Fischman's reads from the rail. Apparently he must have some Razz experience.

Not to blow smoke up my brother's you know what, but I was impressed that he only ever raised when he was a good percentage favorite. He was clearly the best Razz player at that table and one can learn a lot about great play by watching closely when he put his raises in vs. when he didn't. I was sorry to see him get knocked out of the tournament--not just cause he is my brother and I root for him but also because the play just wasn't nearly as good when he was gone.

Razz can be a very frustrating game. But it is also poker math in its somewhat purest form and I think you could really differentiate between the players who truly grasped the math and the ones who didn't in that event.

Extremely entertaining poker, IMHO.

Annie

[SaintAces]

those were my thoughts exactly while I was watching the telecast. Howard was continually putting him money in with the best of it and he basically made TJ look like a goofball at times. Howard caught a couple of painfully unlucky runner-runner three-pairs that crippled him. However, he was clearly the one doing the math and the reading on the table.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I was impressed that he (Howard Lederer) only ever raised when he was a good percentage favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were a couple occasions where Lederer raised, the %'s backed up his play, but it still surprised me (probably because I've never played razz). These raises came in situations where the boards were like this:

Howard Lederer: (5,2)7,A,A
Opponent: (x,x)4,9,T

The first time I saw Howard raise with an open pair when his opponent had a made hand on 5th, I was stunned. Howard was "beaten" but raising his opponent anyway. He even did it to Cloutier on 6th street when Howard had two pair on board and Cloutier had a made hand. It was one thing I learned watching the show and will punish Clarkmeister, Tommy Angelo, and others with it during our next home game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MEbenhoe]

I agree with Annie completely on this. Howard was clearly the best player at that table and would have had a bracelet if not for the fact that luck simply wasnt on his side that day. Howard played Razz very similar to the way I learned it and play it. Also TJ played quite well, not as well as Howard in my opinion but still quite well. A lot of people think he just caught cards but he was drawing at the right times and playing his made hands properly as well.

[Johnsears]

but i thought cloutier had more style :-)