home game NL hand

[topspin]

From our penny-ante poor-college-student home game yesterday. I debated between posting here and in micro-limit, and it ended up here b/c micro seemed to be mostly limit posts. Apologies if it ended up in the wrong spot.

Game was NLHE, $0.05/$0.10 blinds, 6-handed. Table was pretty loose-passive pre-flop (most ppl seemed to see at least 40% or more flops, lots of limping), with people tightening up on the turn. Buy-ins were $4, and villain was the chip leader sitting one spot to left of hero, who still had around $4 to villain's $8 or so.

Pre-flop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

With the usual post-flop bet being $0.25 and up, I figure I have enough implied odds to try to limp with the suited one-gap. Too loose?

Flop: ($0.50) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG checks, <font color="red"> Hero bets $0.25 </font>, CO calls, everyone else folds.

Not the best flop for my hand, but I do have top pair and a backdoor flush on a board full of low cards. CO has been raising JJ+ pre-flop, plus just calls on the flop, so I discount a pocket pair. I figure him for either JT or overcards.

Turn: ($1.00) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero bets $0.50 </font>, CO calls.

Not happy about this card; I figure I'm pretty far behind hands like JT, or J and any other paint, although CO would probably have raised pre-flop with two paints. Bet to see where I'm at, and am ready to fold to a big raise.

River: ($2.00) K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero bets $0.75 </font>, CO calls.

I figure I have a decent chance to push out a mediocre hand, but there are lots of hands that can beat me. Given how passively the CO has played this hand, I figure there's a good possibility that he doesn't have a great hand and that betting is worth a shot, since he'd probably bet if I checked and I'd have trouble figuring if he was bluffing into a weak check or betting a legit hand.

Results to follow. I'm pretty new to NL, so any comments on any streets would be greatly appreciated.

[mistrpug]

Should have folded preflop. In a 6-handed game, even if it's loose-passive preflop, you don't have the omplied odds you need here IMO. Especially since you say later that the CO would raise with any 2 paint cards. Mediocre cards, bad position and not enough players to make it worth a call.

[tardigrade]

Limping pf is marginal here. I think you could play these from CO or button in a soft game where you can count on getting paid off well when you hit, but it's too hard to play this early when you just pair up (as you saw).

In fixed limit, I'd always semi-bluff on the flop, since if a diamond comes on the turn, I'm getting good odds to draw into the flush. You aren't guaranteed that in NL, though.

On the flop, with the pair and backdoor flush draw in EP, I think you can reasonably choose to be the aggressor or not. If I opted for aggression, considering I'm betting out with a relatively weak hand, I'd want to put in a bigger bet, around 1x pot. I'm hoping for folds, and back off on the turn if I get a caller, since most hands that call that bet can beat me. (If another diamond came on the turn, I'd lead again with the same bet as on the flop to prevent the villain from sensing weakness and betting larger than my drawing odds.)

I think the way the hand worked out, you have managed to trap another marginal hand in the pot with you. He doesn't really love being there either, but he can't fold to those bets. Either push those bets up higher to eliminate other weak hands (and definitively let you know you're beat when they call) or approach the hand more passively (judo-style) and adapt your response to the action behind you.

My probable response to that flop in that position would be to check into the field. I call a reasonably small bet to see the turn. If I get a diamond, I bet out about 1/3 to 1/2 pot to discourage a bigger bet behind me. If I don't, when the initial bettor was late and the opening bet was small, then I drop a roughly pot-sized bet and try to win it on the spot if an overcard or other scare card comes. In the remaining case, I'll check-call a wimpy bet. And either check-call another wimpy bet on the river or check-raise about 1-2x the bet if I hit 2 pair.

I guess my play would be to try to simultaneously A) improve and trap, B) sense weakness and steal, C) avoid getting more than a couple BB involved in a prolonged marginal confrontation.

[JrJordan]

Just a quick word on your game structure. With a $4 max buy in, the game is very shallow. That's only 40xBB... less than Party Poker. Maybe the next time you host a game you might recommend raising the max buy in to $6, or at least $5. It will give you better impled odds to loosen your starting hand selection.

Preflop: T8s is a pretty bad hand here for several reasons. You have very bad position with what is at best a drawing hand. There's only 6 people at the table, reducing implied odds. The stacks are very shallow, again reducing implied odds. Fold this guy preflop every time and you'll already be making a +EV decision.

Flop: This is why T8s sucks from EP. Other than a miracle two pair or straight/flush, you hit the best flop you possibly could. You have top pair on a rainbow, non draw board. The problem is, you have no idea where you stand on this hand. I'd probably bet closer to $.35 in this case. $.25 just seems too weak in this case and if he's LAG he could push you out of the pot.

Turn: His call is pretty suspect and now an overcard hits, not the worst one though. This bet comes down to a read of your opponent. Is he relatively weak-tight and would fold to a strong turn bet, or is he a calling station that you can't get off a hand for your life? If he's weak tight, I bet again around $.75 and hope to take the pot there. If he's a calling station, I check hoping to see a free river and win a small pot.

River: Another overcard comes and your opponent has called two bets already. You mention that you're trying to push out a mediocre hand right? The $.75 bet you make here is less than half the pot. Against a calling station like this guy there is no way he's folding here unless you were already ahead in the first place. I can't think of a decent hand that will call your bet, and still lose to you. You thought he had JT or overcards. Well, the only hand you beat now following that is AQ, which he would probably raise PF. Check and be willing to fold to any decent bet on the river.

A suited one gapper from early position is asking for trouble. Too many ways to lose it, and not enough ways to get it paid off. Fold it preflop from EP every time and you've already improved.

[hulk3rules]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: ($1.00) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero bets $0.50 </font>, CO calls.

Not happy about this card; I figure I'm pretty far behind hands like JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, aren't you drawing dead to JT??

[JrJordan]

I'm guessing his read miraculously changed from JT to overcards. Funny how that happens [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[topspin]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Regarding the river underbet, I kind of spaced out on whether I should try to bet to push the other guy out if he had a marginal hand, versus being worried that he was slowplaying something like a two pair. (I was more inclined to the former after he didn't raise the turn, since I hadn't seen him slowplay any of his bigger hands, but this was my first time playing with him and wasn't sure how solid that read was.) Somehow I decided on a compromise mini-size bet that obviously wouldn't accomplish either.

He ended up turning over T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to outkick me by one pip [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] He mentioned afterwards that he was also worried I might have JT and would have folded to a bigger bet.

Revising my EP calling standards now seems like a good idea. I'm still working on trying to figure out how much I can loosen up in short-handed games before I start calling too much. I'd been inclined to call because so many people were seeing a lot of flops for cheap that I'd figured to play a few more drawing hands than conventional wisdom; this was a hand I probably shouldn't have pushed so far when it missed both of its primary draws.

[Kirkrrr]

I do that too. I put my opponents on hands that I can beat, and then bet. I don't always win but at least it gives me some peace of mind during the hand itself. You should try it.

Kirk R.