Q9s, paired board

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I am folding this preflop at .5/1. I would raise QTs+.

You should raise the flop, but since you didn't I like raising the turn. You will often at this level get a free showdown, but you can bet when you make your flush. If he 3-bets you can call and fold the river unimproved.

True

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I do not like the turn raise in this spot for 2 reasons:

-the pot is small

-if we do not have the best hand we have to almost always
pay three bets to draw

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Call/Call cost 2 bets, Raising turn costs maximum of 3 bets.

We also make the flush 20% of the time, and when we get 3-bet we win 2-4 on the river (when we win)

I think you are also understimating the amount of times we have the best hand here. This is .5/1 and people are not prone to play trips quickly.

Maybe we should raise this preflop, but I don't. I don't think I am missing out much value from it when we already have UTG calling so we lose the chance to win this pot unchallenged.

True

[Guruman]

--blind response--

I typed this when I misread the action and took you for limping this hand utg. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I liked it, but it obviously has no bearing on your situation, so I whited it out.

<font color="white">you'll probably get a few calls to drop this pf, and I'd probably agree, but only just barely.


limping marginal hands when you have a read that the table likes to limp is usually just fine in a full ring game, but shorthanded a few mechanics get in the way of going overboard.

First off, there are only so many people that can limp behind you. if all but two limp shorthanded, you've only gotten 3-1 in your money, and you won't have immediate odds even if you do pick up your flush draw. In full ring, you'd get 7-1 if all but two folded, and that sets up a draw much better. Also, if you just pair that queen, you could be setting yourself up for spewing.

second, even passive shorthanded games are more aggressive than passive full ring - and that hand hates a pf raise.

third, very drawy hands benefit greatly from position. If you're closing the action or are one from the button, you can do things like pump your draws and take free cards. From ep you are at the mercy of the other players, and again are in danger of spewing if you half make your hand.

just me rambling there.</font>

I like the pf call given the passive table read and your position.

On the flop I think you're misapplying WA/WB here because you're up against multiple opponents. There's a link in this weeks digest to a mid hi discussion about the overuse of this line due to a general misunderstanding of it.

With three opponents you're up against six cards instead of two, and the prospects of staying way ahead of all of them are remote. You have to either drop this or make a move to thin the field. If you raise and get HU, you can consider going WA/WB, though that's purely dependant on the player who comes along and the read you have on him.

In all, calling is a bad play on the flop because of the potential gutshots, overcards to your 9, and ace high hands that would love to come along.

If BB is passive, I'd just drop on the flop because it will cost you at least 2.5 BB to show down a hand that could already be beaten by either him or UTG.

If BB is tricky or aggressive and UTG likes to call too much, then I raise for value (and isolation) and reevaluate on the turn.

The problem you'll have in these situations is that all too often people that call these kinds of flops like to showdown, and you can't overcall on the river with that hand UI.

When UTG drops on the turn, the rest of the hand plays itself.

yeah, sounds like flop raise is good here. sometimes if it's HU on the flop i will call and raise on the turn unless BB is passive. is this move profitable? i like waiting until he has to put in a full bet and trap then.

[adsman]

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I like the limp.

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Why? I honestly can't see any reasons to like it.

it's a good limping hand in late position, but given the table thre isn't much difference -- i know i'll get callers. though i'd rather have 5-6.

[fizzleboink]

I think this is an easy limp with bad players as you will have a marginal edge. Raising is ok too for the same reason.

That being said you only have that marginal edge if you are capable of raising flops like this one.

[Guruman]

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I like the limp.

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Why? I honestly can't see any reasons to like it.

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The purpose of raising marginal hands in late position is usually to attempt to win without showing down either pf or with a flop/turn continuation bet. Some ace high and small pair hands can also stand getting looked up on the river.

you can't show this hand down UI though, and you often wont get headsup with a raise since a limper is offering much better odds to the blinds - expanding thier ranges. You don't have enough equity to raise for value, as you'll have to catch to win most of the time.

This hand can win against these ranges by catching in a lot of ways (including just pairing up), and plays well enough multiway that we don't mind seeing the bb get in for free.

we have position, and can dump quickly. We can also pump when we hit.

what would you rather do with it? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Hi NeverForget-

If you're going to play a two gap suited connector after one limper, then there needs to be a better reason to play it than the small percentage of time you'll turn a flush draw, straight draw or two pair +. I would suggest this reason is the high card strength of your hand. If you pair either card, it's probably a winner. If you can't play your hand as a potential winner when it pairs, you probably shouldn't be playing it in the first place.

With that said: You have second pair, great kicker on an XXY flop. People LOVE these sort of flops in shorthanded, they love to bluff them, they love to value bet midpairs and they love to slowplay when they hit trips. A bet on this board should not scare you, it should compel you to raise and charge people for their lone aces and kings. Oftentimes, players will make awful mistakes and call (or raise) on this board with underpockets, getting awful odds to do so. Grant them these horrible odds by raising. If you are bet into again on the turn, I probably raise for the flush draw plus the potential our hand is still best, and check through the river unless we make our flush.

[LoaferGee12]

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I like the limp.

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Why? I honestly can't see any reasons to like it.

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What Guru said.