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#1
12-28-2005, 10:13 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I hear many atheists claim that the laws of logic are self-evident and axiomatic and cannot be proven. [/ QUOTE ] You need to get out more. Even if their claims are true, it has nothing to do with atheism ( it maybe part of their route to atheism, but so what). That would be like believing everybody at the bus stop took the bus there. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] I didn't say it had anything to do with just atheism, I just said I hear many atheists claim it. Logic seems to be a popular "route" to atheism (from what I have seen). I guess that is the "route" I am trying to understand. But my mind is inclined to question the nature of logic and where it comes from before I use it as a means of what I believe. I can't see, smell, touch, hear, or taste logic. Yet I believe it. Why? It just seems inconsistent to me that some people claim they rely on nothing but empirical evidence (I am not saying all atheists believe this) while simultaneously believing in logic, then go on to insist a person is irrational if they believe in God. Am I misunderstanding this position? And do you believe faith is required to use logic? 
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#2
12-28-2005, 11:35 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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It just seems inconsistent to me that some people claim they rely on nothing but empirical evidence (I am not saying all atheists believe this) while simultaneously believing in logic, then go on to insist a person is irrational if they believe in God. Am I misunderstanding this position? And do you believe faith is required to use logic? [/ QUOTE ] Ha. Welcome to the insanity wagon.
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#3
12-28-2005, 02:48 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic? Is it blind faith? [/ QUOTE ] Good questions. No atheist worldview can rationally account for logic, science or morality. Getting them to admit it is difficult even though atheists like Nietzsche and Russell make similar statements. If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.
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#4
12-28-2005, 02:55 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I'll bite. In what sense is the universe "irrational" and what "atheist philosophers" say that it is? I have a feeling they weren't using the word "irrational" in the same sense that I do when I apply it to the universe.
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#5
12-28-2005, 03:05 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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In what sense is the universe "irrational" and what "atheist philosophers" say that it is? [/ QUOTE ] Most, if not all, existentialist philosophers. It is irrational if there is no purpose or meaning to it, if it is just the accidental twitch in cosmic nothingness. Many responses stated an inanimate object can't be irrational and no amount of explaining would move them. The real kicker is when one or two seem to agree but then say something like "Why does the universe have to have meaning?".
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#6
12-28-2005, 03:23 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
It's unfortunate the concept of "level-confusion" and emergent properties hasn't become better known yet. Attributes at one level of a complex system don't carry through to other levels. Thinking 'selfish-genes' result in 'selfish people' is a classic example.
Here, whether the universe is irrational or has purpose or meaning is irrelevant to whether lilacs or cod or people's lives have any of those qualities. Attributes reside at the level they are found. Entities at higher levels develop attributes not found at lower levels, so to look for them there is like wondering why flour doesn't swell up in the bag. luckyme
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#7
12-28-2005, 03:32 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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Most, if not all, existentialist philosophers. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I was pretty sure you were talking about Sartre etc. Rest assured that what they have in mind when they say the "universe is irrational" is completely different from what I mean when I say it. It's perfectly possible for the universe to be both absurd (in the Sartre sense) and ruthlessly logical at the same time. What I'm saying is that the universe is ruthlessly logical (laws of physics etc.). One of the results of this is that the universe has no interest whatsoever in our human desires. This, I believe, is what Sartre was getting at with his talk about absurdity (the lack of any relation between our desires and the universe's desires). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about Sartre's POV. My knowledge of his writings/ideas is rather limited. Nevertheless, he was mostly talking about human desires and how they relate to the universe as a whole. I'm just talking about the universe as a whole. Human desires don't enter into it when it comes to the fundamental validity of the rules of logic as far as I'm concerned.
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#8
12-28-2005, 01:13 PM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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This, I believe, is what Sartre was getting at with his talk about absurdity [/ QUOTE ] This is partly true. But the bigger picture is that existentialism is itself the logical outworking of a worldview that rejects God, which is all non-theistic worldviews. If man is the highest rational being then since he is obviously not omniscient and can make no sense of existence the universe is irrational. That includes human reason itself. And that is absurd.
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#9
12-28-2005, 03:13 PM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
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[ QUOTE ] If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I'll bite. In what sense is the universe "irrational" [/ QUOTE ] Oh no.. not again. Here is where this first started (I think): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...709#Post3664174 Feel free to read the rest of that thread, but here was the summary I posted in there ("you" = "NotReady"): 1) By "rational", you mean "created by an intelligent designer for a purpose". 2) You say the universe is "rational", and the non-theist says it's "irrational" -- by your definition, this is true 3) You say "that on this presupposition (that the universe is "irrational") everything is irrational, including logic". 4) I don't think a chair is "irrational", because a human (an intelligent designer) created it for a purpose. 5) You must either have a different definition for "rational" that has yet to be explained, or not think a human is an "intelligent designer" ... or not really believe your previous statement about everything being irrational to a non-theist. (NotReady never replied to this.)
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#10
12-28-2005, 03:19 AM
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Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview
If you're really so curious, take an epistemology class so you can learn some of the "standard" views of how both theists and atheists alike claim to know anything.
Or maybe bother to read some books. There are as many answers for how we know as there are people claiming to have answers. And then there are the few and far between, theist and atheist alike, who know they know nothing.
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