KJo in the BB

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottomset, are you raising KTs, QTs, and JTs here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I told you "sometimes," that wouldn't really be a helpful answer, would it?

It depends on my image and the limpers and how my preflop raises have been viewed and what the postflop outcomes become after I've raised. In an unknown situation, though, I'm raising KTs often (70%+), QTs occasionally (30%), and JTs sometimes (~15%?). JTs, coincidentally, has about the same equity as KJo here (just slightly less).

Rob

[Smasharoo]

It's especially troublesome to me that someone might say that this is an easy raise, without qualification or understanding of how much equity he/she actually has in this situation.


I agree. Alomst as troubling as someone sayig a +EV play "sucks".

Not quite, though.

In this particular hand, paying off JJ with a turn three-bet is far worse than raising pre-flop against it.

Sort of amusing.

[Jakesta]

Entity, good points.

But here is why I raise those three hands, and feel free to correct my logic:

Those three hands are suited which means that when I flop flush draws with them, the pot will be bigger, and I don't really give a crap if people hang around and call the flop because when I hit my monster hand with JTs then they're all going to pay me off. Those hands are also relatively connected(especially QJs, JTs, etc), so I can flop good straight draws with them as well. Simply put, these hands turn into monsters more often than KJo will. KJo often makes a top pair with a good kicker which will not survive against 5 people as often as a straight or a flush will.

So in essence, I'm purposely bloating the pot with these three suited hands.

[Smasharoo]

You never told me if you were raising A5s and 66, ATo, A9o, and A8o, KTo, QJo, or 55. Each of these have an equity edge over the same field listed in your KJo hand.

Pedantic much?

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bottomset, are you raising KTs, QTs, and JTs here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I told you "sometimes," that wouldn't really be a helpful answer, would it?

It depends on my image and the limpers and how my preflop raises have been viewed and what the postflop outcomes become after I've raised. In an unknown situation, though, I'm raising KTs often (70%+), QTs occasionally (30%), and JTs sometimes (~15%?). JTs, coincidentally, has about the same equity as KJo here (just slightly less).

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

see I might in practice, cross the bridge when you get there type of thing, but I don't spend that much time thinking about pretty rare situations

you get one of those 3hands every 110(111) hands, now in the BB(10handedgame) ever 1100hands(or so, might be off a little) ... now you need 3 loose limpers .. it ends up being very uncommon

I'm not good enough with my postflop game, for where I feel its very important for me to spend a serious amount with these close decisions

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

It's especially troublesome to me that someone might say that this is an easy raise, without qualification or understanding of how much equity he/she actually has in this situation.


I agree. Alomst as troubling as someone sayig a +EV play "sucks".

Not quite, though.

In this particular hand, paying off JJ with a turn three-bet is far worse than raising pre-flop against it.

Sort of amusing.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought 88 was more likely than JJ, but I agree that I don't like 3-betting this turn against unknowns, and I'm much more keen on calling and check-calling the river, depending on the action and river card. I don't get the river bet here at all.

All that said, raising preflop here isn't the worst play in the world, but it is worse than calling. This is MHO but does happen to be shared by some others whom I respect much more than my own opinion, and is the basis for me forming that opinion.

I could try to elaborate tomorrow since I feel like there may be some points I touched upon that either didn't sink in or I didn't get across clearly enough -- I asked a higher stakes player to weigh in, but he basically told me that what I was saying was correct and there wasn't much more to it.

[ QUOTE ]
[00:56] : it's a bad raise against 3 limpers
[00:56] : you obv know that
[00:56] : you've basically given them all the info they need and more
[00:56] : to be able to discern it's a bad raise

[/ QUOTE ]

He went on to say he wouldn't raise KQo there either (I would against 2 limpers, but he'd raise KJo against 2 limpers, so I think that's a moot point).

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

You never told me if you were raising A5s and 66, ATo, A9o, and A8o, KTo, QJo, or 55. Each of these have an equity edge over the same field listed in your KJo hand.

Pedantic much?

[/ QUOTE ]

More literal than pedantic. I mean, every edge is worth pushing, right?

[Smasharoo]

All that said, raising here isn't the worst play in the world, but it is worse than calling.

Yup, I agree.

[Smasharoo]

More literal than pedantic. I mean, every edge is worth pushing, right?

Yes. I'm not good enough postflop to raise 66 here. I am to raise KJ.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Could be a raise in there pre-flop. Party .5/1 has a lot of loose limpers and this could easily be the best hand right now. Plus the raise makes leading out after the flop more credible. Lousy position tho.

edit: posted before I read the 8-page discussion, and my two sentences on the pre-flop look pretty small. Honestly I don't think it makes a big enough difference to justify the huge debate. I think against certain opponents you can safely raise this, against many others you should check. The type of players you can raise against, however, can be found on Party .5/1. The part I would like to see discussed is the turn play.

Flop looks like what I would do.

Turn...hmmm...button saying he made a set of 6's, or slowplaying a big flopped hand. Could be raggedy two pair so I am going to call...three-bet to try and drive out UTG+1 and CO? Probably going to get re-raised (by button) if I do. If they've got open-enders or flush draws they aren't going anywhere. Do I think I have the best hand right now? Here I really wish we had a read on on Button. The other two I'm not as worried about, which is probably a mistake. What I do here really depends on my opposition's tendencies, but against an unknown, or a tight player, I just might turtle up and call down. Hate myself if he shows K-6 diamonds, or something.