KJo in the BB

[Smasharoo]

Let me quickly state something here. While I raise KJo in this BB, I've repeadetly said that it's a small edge in EV to do so. As such, it's not terribly rellevant to long term winrate independly. What troubles me is that people would say something this cloes "sucks" with no explination, logical foundation, or even, frankly, a good reason.

While i did say I thought it should be an "easy" raise here, I was speaking in the first person and should have qaulified it as "for me".

Obviously it's close.

KJs/KQ/AJ etc. are much less close. No rasing AQo here does "suck" without question.

Just to through that out there. All of the flawed arguments made so far could equally be applied to AQo and equally with simmilarly poor results.

[Smasharoo]

That's bullshit hyperbole, and you know it.


I agree.

Particularly the part where he said you were right.

[bottomset]

I don't think the little edge you have preflop here is worth pushing

it prob wouldn't take very much tweaking at all to make it a 1% deficit .. while maintaining a very reasonable setup

[Smasharoo]

I don't think the little edge you have preflop here is worth pushing

Every edge is worth pushing.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the little edge you have preflop here is worth pushing

Every edge is worth pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

not necessarily, especially if waiting allows you to push a larger edge down the road, and really I don't know how often you really have the edge here ... I see AQ, AK limped a lot .. adding them in certainly hurts you .. as would removing just a few of the hands you have dominated

at best a very thin raise, often breakeven or slightly negative

[Jakesta]

Bottomset, are you raising KTs, QTs, and JTs here?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I know that my opponent's most likely action postflop is calling in this game, and I know that by raising preflop, I make it more mathematically correct for them to do what they love: call.


You get 3 to 1 on their pre-flop call and most likely less on the post flop ation. They will call, as you've said, regardless. The fact that they are calling correctly doesn't impact your return in the slightest. You will be winning the same number of hands and losing the same number of hands. When you lose, you lose an extra BB when you win, you win an additional 1.5. You will still win 4/5 times (or whatever) so over the 5 hands you net an additional 1BB per hand. Explain to me how you make more money by not raisig (getting 3 to 1 again) because they are calling incorrectly postlfop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponents were to only call, never raise (and our handranges on them were correct), and you were to lead every single street on every single hand with every combination of cards to flop/turn/river, then raising here would be correct (though only slightly, it would still be +EV). This is not the case in poker, though, and even opponents who generally call will do other things (raise/fold).

I understand your objections but don't think they necessarily apply here. The simple fact of the matter is that in a game of imperfect information, where people occasionally limp UTG with AA and often limp with JJ and AJs and hands like this (as well as 24s and 44 and 37o), we aren't looking at raising in every situation where we have an edge. We determine that there's an acceptable equity edge where the good outweighs the bad, and we raise at that point. KJo hasn't met that point. KJs has. KQs has. ATs has. KQo, for me, hasn't (I asked Guy on Tilt and he said it hasn't for him either; and against 2 limpers, he'd raise KJo).

We aren't pushing "any" edge here, because this isn't an all-in game. If it were we'd be raising with 55 and KTo and QJo and A9o, but it isn't -- we have to take into considerations whether raising preflop has an impact on our postflop expectation, and it does.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the little edge you have preflop here is worth pushing

Every edge is worth pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never told me if you were raising A5s and 66, ATo, A9o, and A8o, KTo, QJo, or 55. Each of these have an equity edge over the same field listed in your KJo hand.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
What troubles me is that people would say something this cloes "sucks" with no explination, logical foundation, or even, frankly, a good reason.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's especially troublesome to me that someone might say that this is an easy raise, without qualification or understanding of how much equity he/she actually has in this situation.

Rob

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottomset, are you raising KTs, QTs, and JTs here?

[/ QUOTE ]

no to all, though all3 are likely pretty close, and I maybe should be .. I haven't really sat down and calculated them