KJo in the BB

[Smasharoo]

Oh while we're on the subject, I assume that your imaginary equity calculations include hands that we'd normally assume would be raised? AK/AA/ etc. etc.

Or do they take the fact that it's limped to you into account?

If they include hands that would normally be raised, clearly your equity is even higher that you indicate.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying I may not make a +EV play if it gives me a higher chance of making a much more +EV play later, and just as importantly, decreases my chances of making a -EV play later in the hand.

Rob

[Smasharoo]

I asked you a simple question: are you raising A5s here?

I asked you a simple one. Are you not making +EV plays pre-flop because it's too hard for you to deal with postflop?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh while we're on the subject, I assume that your imaginary equity calculations include hands that we'd normally assume would be raised? AK/AA/ etc. etc.

Or do they take the fact that it's limped to you into account?

If they include hands that would normally be raised, clearly your equity is even higher that you indicate.

[/ QUOTE ]

My equity calculations were being generous (as your average limpers are not 55-60% VPIP'ers) to compensate for the fact that I did not remove certain hands from the range. I can remove those hands if necessary and rerun the sims.

[Smasharoo]

I'm saying I may not make a +EV play if it gives me a higher chance of making a much more +EV play later, and just as importantly, decreases my chances of making a -EV play later in the hand.


Might be better to refine your postflop play so that you're not makig -EV plays because you raised when you were in a +EV situation pre-flop.

[Jakesta]

Now you are just being insulting to Entity.

[Smasharoo]

My equity calculations were being generous (as your average limpers are not 55-60% VPIP'ers) to compensate for the fact that I did not remove certain hands from the range. I can remove those hands if necessary and rerun the sims.


Or I could throw darts at a dartboard with various equity percentages on it for an equal level of accuraccy.

Including hands that crush KJ which are normally raised is disingenous at best.

If you don't raise it because you find it easier to play that way, just say so.

There's not a good objective argument for checking.

[Smasharoo]

Now you are just being insulting to Entity.

How am I being insulting?

If I told you I didn't raise AA because I felt that when i did I could never get away from it postflop wouldn't you tell me I'd be better off raising it and fixing my postflop play?

[Jakesta]

Listen, I think what Entity is trying to say is that by avoiding bloating the pot with a preflop raise(even though the raise is +EV), he can better outplay his opponents after the flop, in a smaller pot(in terms of SB).

This, to me, is similar to Ed Miller's advocating waiting to raise certain hands until the turn, where the bet size doubles, and you can outplay your opponents on fourth street instead of pumping the flop.

You sacrifice a TINY bit of EV preflop in return for gaining MORE EV later on where you can demonstrate your better postflop skills. Just like waiting till the turn where the bet sizes double so you can give incorrect odds to crappy draws.

Am I close, Entity?

[damaniac]

P. 88, SSHE:

You often make an important trade off when you raise before the flop. When you have a pot equity edge, your raise has an immediate positive expectation because you will win more than your fair share. But that raise simultaneously cuts your postflop expectation.

I suspect this is what he means.