A Tournament of Thievery

eMarkM · #1 08-08-2004, 12:10 AM

I got a great response from this post about different way of accumulating chips when the cards aren't falling your way. Obviously folks like this kind of discussion as I feel sometimes this forum focuses too much on pot odds and not enough on playing the player. Sometimes I fail to get creative and fall into the same rut of getting blinded down waiting for the big hand near the money and just writing that post helped me to get a little more aggressive and look for good spots to make judicious bluffs. At the risk of exposing too much of my game to those who play me at Stars, here are some examples from a tourney I played at Stars last night. A $50 NLHE event with 336 participants. Most of these are very boring blind steals, but I want to show stack sizes and the situations where it's good to steal with nothing.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

MP2 (t1720)
MP3 (t1130)
CO (t1940)
eMarkM (t1165)
SB (t1050)
BB (t2030)
UTG (t1605)
UTG+1 (t1460)
MP1 (t1400)

Preflop: eMarkM is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t60, UTG+1 calls t60, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, eMarkM calls t60, SB calls t45, BB calls t30.

Flop: (t300) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t60, UTG+1 folds, eMarkM calls t60, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t420) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets t90, eMarkM raises to t330, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t840

Results below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t840.

I limp in looking to flop a set and find myself headsup with position on a drawish board against a weak bet. I'm already getting a bit low on chips and need to make a move. I figured I could take it down on the turn if a scare card came. 9d is about as scary as it gets and I had "made my flush" (or was it a straight?) and raised when he made another weak bet. Now I'm back around 1500. All the ingredients were here for this move. Position, scary board and opponent acting weak.

========================================

I've gathered more chips at this point when I hit top set, rivered a straight when my opponent gave me odds to hit, and a blind defense with A5 where I caught and A got paid off by 2nd pair that has put me at around 4500. Blinds are 150/75 and I have a healthy stack for the thievery to begin.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed)

eMarkM (t4535)
UTG (t2995)
UTG+1 (t2175)
MP1 (t1765)
MP2 (t3453)
CO (t4585)
Button (t5615)
SB (t6405)

Preflop: eMarkM is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t150, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, eMarkM raises to t600, MP1 calls t450.

Flop: (t1275) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
eMarkM checks, MP1 bets t450, eMarkM raises to t3935, MP1 calls t715 (All-In).

Turn: (t6375) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t6375) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t6375

Results below:
eMarkM shows Kh Js (three of a kind, kings).
MP1 shows 5h 5c (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: eMarkM wins t6375.

I usually feel I can push single limpers off hands with a raise. Here I do it with a hand that doesn't seem to warrant it out of position. He called, I got lucky and flopped a monster which he paid off when I got him pot committed with the check raise.

=========================================

Now I really have a nice stack for larceny as I have the three stacks to my left well covered. Their only resource will be to move in on me and I'll be stealing with hands that will either be solid hands I have a shot at busting them with or easy folds for me. This is a situation where I would really rather steal with complete garbage as it make my decisions very straightforward when they play back. Contrast this with the hands davidross says he steals with that leaves him with a difficult choice when he gets played back at. I mean, in most situations you're folding Ax and K9 against an all-in anyway, so why not steal with 72o?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed)

eMarkM (t6525)
Button (t2770)
SB (t2025)
BB (t2080)
UTG (t13840)
UTG+1 (t3453)
MP1 (t4585)
MP2 (t5615)

Preflop: eMarkM is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, eMarkM raises to t450, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t675

Results below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t675.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed)

eMarkM (t6750)
SB (t2570)
BB (t1855)
UTG (t13990)
UTG+1 (t3153)
MP1 (t7360)
MP2 (t5115)
CO (t2750)

Preflop: eMarkM is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, eMarkM raises to t600, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t900

Results below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t900.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t6750)
SB (t1370)
BB (t2920)
UTG (t2355)
UTG+1 (t14990)
MP1 (t1153)
MP2 (t4360)
MP3 (t4115)
CO (t7250)

Preflop: eMarkM is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, eMarkM raises to t600, SB raises to t1370, BB raises to t2920, eMarkM folds.

Flop: (t4890) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t4890) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t4890) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t4890

Results below:
SB shows Td Th (one pair, tens).
BB shows Qd Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: BB wins t4890.

In retrospect, this was an ill advised steal. With SB so low, his reraise would have given me odds and I would have had to call with this crummy hand. I would have sucked out on him, too, had the BB not also pushed to make my fold easy. But I probably should have laid back at this point and waited for good cards to bust him.

===========================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed)

eMarkM (t5200)
BB (t5240)
UTG (t3005)
UTG+1 (t15540)
MP1 (t703)
MP2 (t5110)
CO (t3665)
Button (t6800)

Preflop: eMarkM is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, eMarkM completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t675) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
eMarkM bets t400, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t400.

Turn: (t1475) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
eMarkM bets t1400, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t2875

Results in white below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t2875.

This isn't normally a hand you'd complete with with just the one limper. No odds, right? But my plan here was to exercise "first right of bluffing" and fire a bet at any flop. Again hoping the others don't hit the flop and I can take it down uncontested. I happened to flop a flush draw and went from bluffing at the pot to semi-bluffing, then I turned the flush. Had I not had the draw I probably would have given up on the hand after he called the flop bet.

================================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t4550)
Button (t4154)
SB (t4232)
BB (t3480)
UTG (t18746)
UTG+1 (t4840)
MP1 (t6110)
MP2 (t7580)
MP3 (t5306)

Preflop: eMarkM is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, eMarkM raises to t1225, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t1425

Results below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t1425.

Again, all the stacks behind me are similarly sized and they'll probably be coming over the top of me all-in when they play back, so they'll be folding the majority of the time and I can make an easy laydown when they do move in.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t5350)
CO (t4129)
Button (t4007)
SB (t3055)
BB (t18721)
UTG (t4815)
UTG+1 (t6085)
MP1 (t7555)
MP2 (t5281)

Preflop: eMarkM is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, eMarkM raises to t1200, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises to t3030, BB folds, eMarkM calls t1830.

Flop: (t6235) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t6235) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t6235) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t6235

Results below:
SB shows 8d 8c (one pair, eights).
eMarkM shows Qh Qd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: eMarkM wins t6235.

This time I have the goods.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t9030)
Button (t3354)
SB (t3432)
BB (t3983)
UTG (t19346)
UTG+1 (t4440)
MP1 (t7735)
MP2 (t6780)
MP3 (t4106)

Preflop: eMarkM is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, eMarkM raises to t1225, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t1425

Results below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t1425.

Another great steal opportunity, we're nearing the money and I have all the stacks behind me covered.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t9680)
MP1 (t11515)
MP2 (t3407)
MP3 (t3708)
CO (t21021)
Button (t4565)
SB (t7010)
BB (t8834)
UTG (t3981)

Preflop: eMarkM is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, eMarkM raises to t1800, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t1200.

Flop: (t3400) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, eMarkM bets t3000, BB folds.

Final Pot: t6400

Results in white below:
No showdown. eMarkM wins t6400.

Perhaps a questionable raise here in EP with these cards, but it's bubble time and the Gap is a chasm. I fire the second barrel with nothing but weak over cards on a flop that didn't rate to hit the caller.

======================================

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed)

eMarkM (t19195)
Button (t11565)
SB (t5078)
BB (t28731)
UTG (t4315)
UTG+1 (t4492)
MP1 (t6484)
MP2 (t2831)

Preflop: eMarkM is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, eMarkM raises to t1850, Button folds, SB raises to t5078, BB folds, eMarkM folds.

Final Pot: t7228

Results below:
No showdown. SB wins t7228.

This against 2+2er Steeser. He's having none of this.

======================================

At this point I re-raised a smaller stack all-in with AK only to be shown KK and I get knocked down to 10K and this really kills my stealing action. I pull back my reigns and finally move in with this hand and become the victim of some really crappy luck.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (9 handed)

eMarkM (t6936)
MP3 (t18455)
CO (t6981)
Button (t3169)
SB (t23547)
BB (t6793)
UTG (t13512)
UTG+1 (t15218)
MP1 (t7937)

Preflop: eMarkM is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, eMarkM raises to t6861, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t6261, BB folds.

Flop: (t13722) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t13722) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t13722) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t13722

Results in white below: 
SB shows Jd Ah (straight, ace high).
eMarkM shows Ad Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: SB wins t13722. 

And I finish 27th with $118.

ilya · #2 08-08-2004, 12:37 AM

Thanks eMarkM. Another excellent post from someone who's quickly becoming my favorite poster.

durron597 · #3 08-08-2004, 12:53 AM

I gotta say, eMarkM; this is pretty tame as far as thievery goes. I wish I had the hand history for some of my doosies.... in the tourney I recently I finished second in, I had one hand where I fire at the flop, and then check raise the turn with Jack high, another where I steal with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and then proceed to get QQ the very next hand and bust someone who plays back at me.... another one where I raise in the Button with Q4o behind one limper and the limper calls; flop comes AKx, he bets the minimum and I raise 2/3 pot, he thinks for a long time and folds and says something to the effect of "I'm folding a weak ace" into the chat box.

I will say this: the most important element of thievery and aggressive play is to know who to steal from. I definitely leaked a few more chips than I had to in that tourney to the calling stations, who I figured wouldn't call me down to bets for 1/4 their stack the ONE time I chose to play back at them; but they did. But in the end it didn't matter; when you can steal enough chips to be the buster instead of the bustee you can take your chips from the calling stations - they will give them to you when you bet. And I made sure to think about when I would get called and made sure that whenever I raised I always had a hand. No one ever saw me raising with crap (which I did starting at level 4, and for the ENTIRE rest of the tourney until I had to spend a few orbits at the final table getting the REALLY loose calling stations/chip leaders on my left to respect to respect my raises) until three handed. and sometimes I made (what I consider to be) monstrous laydowns, too - one hand there's an EP limper and table chip leader in MP (this is real late tourney at this point, like 50 left of 340) raises and I'm in the BB with AQo; I just fold because it's not worth getting involved. When you have 20xBB, you can afford to wait for a better spot: like folded to you on the button with 42o [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Definitely, as you said: it's ALL about position. Steal from the weak tighties, it doesn't matter what you have because they will fold! And if they truly are weak/tight, and they raise, then LAY DOWN A9. Because they have something better... they will fold next hand. And bet big with monsters against the calling stations - they called before they will call again! Fire that second barrel: it DEFINITELY will give you more chips than when you get played back at.

Big hand statistics (if I recall correctly): in 4 hours of play, I got AA 0 times, KK 1 time, QQ 2 times, JJ 2 times, TT 1 time, 99 2 times, AK 2 times, AQ 3 times, AJ 2 times. And I played a whole lot (way more than 10x) that many hands. I also didn't get my chips in when I was less than a 60% favorite for the entire tourney until the final table unless I had the person covered by more than 4x.

sdplayerb · #4 08-08-2004, 04:17 AM

Very useful, especially some of your creative plays.
I liked the QJ with a 9 high board. I always say if you raised and the board is 9 high or lower, always bet at it.

To be anal for a second on terminology, you weren't actually fire a second barrel here. That term means you bet the turn with nothing, after betting the flop. The preflop raise isn't the first barrel.
This is at least per Ciaffione who says his best strength is firing a second barrel on the turn.

The post definitely helped as sometimes I play a little timid since it is so easy to win against bad players by playing 100% straightforwrd, that sometimes I don't play aggressively enough.

SD

GoldenHorde · #5 08-08-2004, 06:49 AM

Great post and oh so very true I had been playing what I thought was good poker for about a year mainly online, just playing tight and straightforward and been doing alright making money but nothing fantastic.

Started reading this site daily until finally I pounded it into my head to be more aggressive, it probably took a couple weeks of playing 10+ hours a day trying to get it right but now im comfortable with it and its been paying off.

I think you didn't exaggerate the most important point though and thats play the players not the cards don't play 2 multi's and a single table at once, watch the blinds once they become significant around the 50/100 lvl at PP. This is about the level when people tighten up, make notes if you can't remember because that guy who hasn't defended once since lvl 4 isn't gonna start on lvl 8 or later.

This is especially true at PP where typically once you get deep into the money the blinds get huge compared to stack size. Last night I was sitting at around 7k when money hit in the midnight 100 multi I increased my stack to over 20k by the time we were down to 2 tables without seeing one flop and most of that was from the same 2-3 guys sitting to my left I pushed virtually every time it was checked to me knowing that barring them waking up to A-K or Q's or better they weren't going to risk their tourney. Finally one of them got fed up and moved on me with K-4 unfortuneately for me I was holding A-K and busted out in 17th when he hit his 4 but just demonstrates another benefit of being aggressive by gettting people to pay you off on your monster hands.

mrbaseball · #6 08-08-2004, 10:45 AM

Another great post! The key here is how you took advantage of situations and opportunities. The other thing is you took your big hit with "good" cards holding AK. Waiting for AK or better can be a long wait. Then to get it cracked is just frustrating.

Taking advantage of the situations and opportunites is what gets you into position to be able to survive your big hands getting sucked out on. Just waiting for the big hands won't do it because they aren't always so good.