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  #1  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:39 AM
CardSharpCook CardSharpCook is offline
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Default OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3bets,</font> Hero's standard line is to call down now.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:44 AM
Chief911 Chief911 is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time

Stats on CO?

I'd 3-bet the flop. What you do based on what he does with your 3-bet is dependant on how he's playing, his stats, etc.

Nick
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2005, 04:49 AM
CardSharpCook CardSharpCook is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

You know, I'd rather not talk about the specific hand, but the situation. What do should I be doing when I get 3bet on the turn with TPTK or other such hands. I'm not worried about the hyper-agros whom I'll be calling down, but what about unknowns, donks, and respectables? What should I be doing?
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2005, 05:44 AM
goofball goofball is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

I really hate this spot, and it seems the last few times i've done the flatcall/checkraise line with TPTK I get 3bet. Because of this I've been more likely to just keep jamming on the flop with teh TPGK. Unknown players 3betting the turn after we've smoothcall/checkraised...one pair is rarely good. I think you might seen enough of the free showdown 3bet to call the turn and fold the river but i don't know. I too feel like this is a spot where my hand is almost never good but I can't' stop myelf from calling down.

Even when I take this line in position getting 3bet sucks, i.e. get checkraised (or bet into) and smooth call then pop the turn only to get 3bet. I always feel like calling those down with one pair is spewing. Maybe the line is to just keep going on the flop, people tend to give a lot of information in their flop caps.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2005, 09:38 AM
imashyboi imashyboi is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

I'll take a shot at this. I not really a stats guy so I'm not positive that my answer is 100% correct.

PreFlop - Standard

Flop - I'll 3bet this flop and see what he does. If you are capped I think you are behind here more than ahead, though he could also have a AQ. I think finding out how your opponent plays his TPTK in this position will help you the most. Some players will cap AQ/KQ/QJ/QT and some won't so it really depends who you're playing against. If he has a set then you are way behind.

Turn - Instead of raising I would suggest betting out. He's not going to raise you here with less than AQ if he does have it. He might even smooth call the bet fearing that you have a monster and will fear getting 3bet. Would he check-raise here again with just AQ? That's the question you need to figure out. The 3bet from him indicates that you are beat probably by a set so I would fold(two pair is very unlikely since the board looks far apart). His play doesn't scream monster until the 3bet on the Turn. Everything else looks standard.

River - Would you check or bet out in this position? I would fire again if he just calls the Turn, indicating weakness. Anyone want to comment what to do if he raises the River? I don't really know what to do here if the action goes raised. I would probably fold since I can't put him on a hand that I can beat.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2005, 11:33 AM
turtlestar turtlestar is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

I have to agree with goofball and chief. I think a 3bet on the flop is best. Then bet/fold the turn. Villain must be super aggro to make bet/call, check/call a good choice. In my experience villain's line of raise/call, raise indicates great strength.

With the line you took: bet/call, check/raise I think your best line on the turn is check/raise/fold. Unless villain is WAY out of line you're drawing slim to dead.

So, yes, I think these hands are costing you an extra 2BB.

Just my 2 cents,
ts
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2005, 11:41 AM
BigEndian BigEndian is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time

You're hoping for only a few things in a call down: he has KQ and over-played it, he paired the 9 or 7 and picked up the flush draw/straight draw and plays these situations hard (see Jason's post), he has a lesser holding and is a complete idiot.

Having been 3-bet after you CRed and after you smooth-called the flop, I think you can get away from this hand a lot of the time if you don't have a read.

- Jim
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  #8  
Old 12-24-2005, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

As you know, this situation is heavily player dependent. You need to understand what he thinks of your ability to fold on the turn. This will help you get an idea of what he can 3 bet with.

Villian will raise this flop with any pair. Some players will call the 3 bet flop and call down with any pair , many will call the 3bet flop and fold the turn or river.

If you don't 3 bet, JT will probably raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river.

I find it common for the flush draw to 3 bet the turn if he also has a pair. Top pair with the flush draw will be frequently 3 betting the turn.

Does the villian have a straight, two pair or trips enough for you to fold here? I don't think so.
Usually, the villian needs to be very tight and predictable for you to fold this turn.

BTW, if this player is too aggro, I would consider check calling down after he flop-raises. If he was too aggro, I wouldn't be comfortable checkraising the turn since he knows that his 3 bet puts you in a hard spot that will cause many tight players to make the mistake of folding. So basically, if he is a tough aggro he will folding to your checkraise and he will 3 betting light more often than we would like.
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'd rather not talk about the specific hand, but the situation. What do should I be doing when I get 3bet on the turn with TPTK or other such hands. I'm not worried about the hyper-agros whom I'll be calling down, but what about unknowns, donks, and respectables? What should I be doing?

[/ QUOTE ]
Cardsharp, IMO you should call down against an unknown, there is enough retarded aggression happening online where you cant release this strong of a hand even in this unfortunate situation.

You know its funny, Ive pondered this problem before awhile back. The problem being, should I call down a 3 bet on the turn if I checkraise the turn with a TPTK type hand against an unknown, or should I just avoid this confrontation all together and 3 bet the flop and lead the turn. After thinking about this situation for a while I came to a realization that made me smile inside and now I dont really worry about this sitaution anymore.

What I realized is that even if you always call down a 3 bet against an unknown and payoff with the 2nd best hand, waiting til the turn to checkraise can still be a better strategy than 3 betting the flop and leading. Heres my analysis on the situation.

When you 3 bet and lead and it works, you will win 7 small bets from your opponent using this strategy. 3sbs on the flop, 2sbs on the turn, and 2sbs on the river.(I know the villain could fold the turn or river but to keep the anaysis simple assume he calls down)

When you 3 bet the flop and it fails you will lose 8 small bets if the villain caps the flop and you call down, or you will lose 9 small bets if the villain calls the flop 3 bet and raises the turn, assuming you call down. To make things simple lets assume you lose 8.5 small bets on average when you are against a better hand.

So using the 3 bet and lead strategy, you win 7 small bets when you have the best hand and you lose 8.5 small bets when the villain has the best hand.

Now on to the call flop-checkraise turn strategy. When this works you will win 8 small bets from your opponent. 2 on the flop 4 on the turn and 2 on the river. When it fails you will lose 10 small bets.

So using the turn checkraise strategy you win 8 small bets when you have the best hand and you lose 10 small bets when the villain has the best hand.

Now lets assume that in both scenarios you run into a better hand 20% of the time and 80% of the time you have the better hand.(again to keep anaysis simple, ignore situations where either side outdraws the other)

3betting strategy yields: 7(.8) - 8.5(.2) = 3.9 small bets

Checkraise turn strategy: 8(.8) - 10(.2) = 4.4 small bets

So the checkraise turn strategy makes more money in this scenario. Does this mean you should wait to checkraise the turn every time? No, in fact most of the time you should be 3betting and leading since you are OOP, and dont want to give a free card, or becuz there are too many bad cards that can come on the turn and ruin the checkraise strategy.

The main point I was trying to make is that I wouldnt worry about calling down too much in this situation when you checkraise the turn becuz even if you call down every time against an unknown you will still make more money, than if you 3 bet the flop and lead. So anyone who always 3 bets the flop and leads becuz they dont want to face a turn 3 bet situation is giving up too much IMO.

I would also like to point out that with your hand AQ on an Q97 board, I would 3 bet and lead every time becuz given this board texture the probability that the villain may check behind on a draw is too high and there are too many bad cards that can hit the turn that would make waiting to checkraise incorrect IMO, if any T,J,8,K hits the turn checkraising may be too risky. Some examples where I will almost always use the checkraise turn strategy against an unknown is if I have AK and the flop is K73r, or A72r, or I have AQ and the flop is Q73r, in all these situations the villain is very unlikely to check behind on the turn and there are very few turn bad turn cards for us. In these situations waiting to checkraise the turn will make more money than the 3 bet lead line in the long run against an Unknown IMO.
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2005, 03:09 PM
B Dids B Dids is offline
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Default Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each

I think this situation is so player dependant that it's hard to have a standard line here. In general TPTK is a hand where you've got the freedom to take different lines in different spots just for the sake of being different (especially against players who you expect to be HU with frequenty over the course of a session)

I do think that 3-betting and calling down from there on on a board like this is probably best. I find that when I go for the turn c/r, sometimes the turn card gives me more FE than I want and people who would have called down with TPNK are dumping there.
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