Lies, Zionist lies and PR

SammyB somewhere below invited me to "get used" to Israel! I'm used to having Israel in the neighborhood, Sammy, but I sure don't appreciate your distortion of facts! And I'm not talking about arcane stuff, either...


SammyB wrote "In 1947 the jews took by force the area we used to know as palestine."

Thanks for admitting that the Zionists had started the take-over b e f o r e the UN proclamation. This is indeed correct. The Zionists never were and never will be supporters of an Arab/Jewish cohabitation of the land. And didn't you just admit that this was Palestine?


SammyB wrote "You think the Palestinians have only hated the Jews for about 100 years? Who have been fighting the jews since the time of Abraham?"

The people who call themselves Palestinians are descendants of the ancient occupiers of those lands only in name. And so are the Jews. Unless you believe in some biological continuation & purity of blood, along with the theory that stronger race blood overcomes the weaker one. Tell me, it would be intriguing!


SammyB wrote "[The Jews] had been ejected from every country in the world except for France and the US."

WRONG. They were "ejected" from France, too. Read your history, man.


SammyB wrote "They [Israel] were granted political life by the UN in 1948."

WRONG. Contrary to what you want us to believe, it was not the United Nations that gave birth to Israel in some peaceful & idyllic manner. Zionist armed bands led by Ben-Gurion proclaimed unilaterally the birth of Israel on May 14, 1948, right after the British vacated Palestine, ignoring pleas by the "civilised worlds" for continued talks with the Arabs who had rejected the idea of a strictly Jewish state. The Arabs of course promptly attacked - and yes, they lost. (And don't think that Israel was "weak and helpless" either. We know better. It was Goliath defeating David to be exact. Arabs fell for it wholesale.)


See http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF?OpenDatabase


The United Nations accepted Israel as a member in 1949 - with the strongest support coming from the Soviet Union.


SammyB wrote "In 1956 they [Israelis] were attacked."

WRONG. It was the Israelis who attacked in 1956.

The Israelis invaded Sinai, along with the French and the British, advanced to the canal, and captured the Gaza Strip. A cease-fire was arranged, because the United States opposed the invasion and strong-armed its allies and Israel to stop it. In early in 1957 the invaders' troops were replaced by the UN Emergency Force. I guess, you could say that "they won", yes.


See http://www.washington-report.org/bac...96/9607083.htm


(Side note: The Israelis tried to undermine Nasser's efforts whereby the British colinists would vacate Egypt. They staged sabotages of British and American facilities, including BOMBS PLANTED IN AMERICAN LIBRARIES, that were to be pinned on Egypt. To the Israelis' embarassment the whole thing blew in their faces. Read about the Lavon affair as detailed by a Jew : http://www.intellex.com/~rigs/page1/lavon.htm)


SammyB wrote "In 1967 they [Israelis] were attacked"

WRONG. In 1967, the Zionists attacked again. You must assume that everyone in this forum was born after the 70s, man!


(Side note: It was in that war, that Israelis felt so cocksure that they attacked and killed lots of American servicemen onboard the U.S.S. Liberty. Israel was slapped on the wrist. See http://www.ussliberty.com )


SammyB wrote "Israel recognizes every other state's right to exist."

WRONG. Ariel Sharon and others, including Labor ministers, have often proclaimed in the past, and most prominently in the 80s, that the Kingdom of Jordan should not exist! That it was the rightful place for all those who called themselves Palestinians. King Hussein did not exactly fell in love with that view.


....Don't take my word on all this, guys, run a search on the Internet and read for yourselves. Start with http://www.mideastfacts.com/index_zion1.html. It is disgraceful that in the wake of Tuesday's barbarism, Zionist apologists have found the opportunity to try and obscure the facts about the Middle East conflict.

Since someone's bound to accuse Cyrus and perhaps me of this anyway I might as well put it on the table.


At least one of the links above appears to be from some sort of anti-semitic, white-supremacist Christian-supremacist website. Although there's a lot of stuff on the web from legitimate sources detailing the predations of Israel, some of it has been predictably pasted into neo-nazi sites, so that if you search for something like the attack on the USS Liberty, you might unknowingly wind up in a page sponsored by these assholes, feigning sympathy for victims of Isreali terror in order to rationalize their own anti-Jewish racism. A few somewhat more principled anti-zionist sites have similar stuff about the "Protocals of the Elders of Zion" and other racist junk.


For the record: I renounce racism and antisemitism in all forms. Neither zionism nor opposition to zionism -- and certainly not advocacy of both Zionism and Palestinian human rights -- is necessarily racist, althought the positions and practices of many on both sides obviously are.


One of the unfortunate side effects of criticizing Israel is that you are sometimes accused of making common cause with your worst nightmare, but I guess that's something you have to put up with.

So, perhaps my point of view has been swayed by the propaganda put forth by the UJA, JDL and the like. And let's say everything is as you say it is. I'll stipulate to all of it. Now what?


Israel is the Jewish Stete. Nothing you do or say, or the arabs do or say, or the UN does or says is going to change it. They're not going to fully incorporate the Palestinians. What are you going to do about it. More terrorism? Big deal. They've had their share and now they're giving back double.


Israel is either here to stay or they will take the whole region with them. Never again is the slogan. Even if it's the whole world against them then so be it. No argument, no treaty, no peace plan will make one Israeli soldier lay down his weapon. So, what's the answer?


Maybe, let the palestinians make a homeland somewhere else. Take it or leave it. That's the way it's going to be. Not because I say it. that's just the way it's going to be. The pro-arabs, the arabs and the rest of the world should see it by now. After all I'm pretty sure it comes as no surprise to find out the Israelis can be an arrogant, stubborn lot.

Ialsm is a great religion that preaches love and a beautiful afterlife. It is only crazed lying clerics who distort this true values of Islam. The manaics like Muslim frings groups exist in all relogions. They are the minority and do not express the thinking of 99.999% of the Arab world. We too want them caught and punished. They kill all of us too who do not support their pranoid beliefs.

Cyrus,


You know better. Research is certainly not about finding a few links which support your point of view. After a very brief search, I can locate sources which will contradict all of the points you make, but am I to accept those sources uncritically? Of course not. Although the Internet does provide a quick and easy research tool, it comes, as Chris Alger points out, loaded with landmines.


Most of us do not have the time or inclination to begin historical inquiry, but I will suggest two texts as a beginning: Edward Said's Orientalism and Hayden White's Metahistory . Any good research effort begins with the general and concludes with the specific--not the other way around.


John

I didn't check out some the sources you mentioned below, but I was curious about the "electronicintifada" one. Who puts that one out? I would like to know if I get the time and inclination to look at it.

This is a very good point. Finding a few sites that say what you want them to say is a very dangerous aspect of the Internet, especially in these dangerous times. Perhaps someone who is willing to do the work could post a few links to some sites that are not only more reliable but which present a different point of view.

John, thanks for all the pointers.


Yes, I do know better. The links I liberally sprinkled my text with, were found after no more than a minute's search on the Web. (And yes, the usual, obscene anti-semitic website might have slipped in, as Chris Alger warned. My sincere apologies. I should have sprinkled conservatively!) Take out the links and read the text. It stands on its own. How could it not? SammyB posted a whole bunch of falsehoods. And his post above is the standard arrogant "So what? Whacha gonna do about it?". Plus ça change, ...


But you're talking about a wholly different medium : books. (I happen to have read one of the 2 titles you recommend and endorse your endorsement.) This is the Net! One must start with the specific on the Net and lead on to the general. It's the ol' hook at work. The audience is committed to listening much less on the Net, to the point of always being "one click away", as the cliché goes, from switching to something entirely different.


The idea is that after some hours in front of the glare, one might be intrigued enough, as a citizen, to open a book, about the background of the problem, about its general rather than its specific aspects, especially since the United States seems hell bent on rushing headlong into it. Hopefully, a book beyond what's recommended by Reader's Digest.


Take care.


--Cyrus

Cyrus wrote:


¡§WRONG. In 1967, the Zionists attacked again. You must assume that everyone in this forum was born after the 70s, man! ¡§


This is an alternative historical description.


On the 6 Day War in 1967


http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/sixdaywar.html


Excerpt from the Answer


Answer

QUESTION:

Was Israel the agressor in 1967? Did Israel attack peacefull Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967 and wrestle the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the "West Bank" from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria?

ANSWER:

„h THE 1967 WAR

In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent. On May 16, Nasser ordered a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, thus removing the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. On May 22, Egypt announced a blockade of all goods bound to and from Israel through the Straits of Tiran. Israel had held since 1957 that another Egyptian blockade of the Tiran Straits would justify Israeli military action to maintain free access to the port of Eilat. Syria increased border clashes with Israel along the Golan Heights and mobilized its troops.

The U.S. feared a major Arab-Israeli and superpower confrontation and asked Israel to delay military action pending a diplomatic resolution of the crisis. On May 23, U.S. President Lyndon Johnson publicly reaffirmed that the Gulf of Aqaba was an international waterway and declared that a blockade of Israeli shipping was illegal. In accordance with U.S. wishes, the Israeli cabinet voted five days later to withhold military action.


The U.S., however, gained little support in the international community for its idea of a maritime force that would compel Egypt to open the waterway and it abandoned its diplomatic efforts in this regard. On May 30, President Nasser and King Hussein signed a mutual defense pact, followed on June 4 by a defense pact between Cairo and Baghdad. Also that week, Arab states began mobilizing their troops. Against this backdrop, Nasser and other Egyptian leaders intensified their anti-Israel rhetoric and repeatedly called for a war of total destruction against Israel.


Arab mobilization compelled Israel to mobilize its troops, 80 percent of which were reserve civilians. Israel feared slow economic strangulation because long-term mobilization of such a majority of the society meant that the Israeli economy and polity would be brought to a virtual standstill. Militarily, Israeli leaders feared the consequences of absorbing an Arab first strike against its civilian population, many of whom lived only miles from Arab-controlled territory. Incendiary Arab rhetoric threatening Israel's annihilation terrified Israeli society and contributed to the pressures to go to war.

Against this background, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt on June 5, 1967 and captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Despite an Israeli appeal to Jordan to stay out of the conflict, Jordan attacked Israel and lost control of the West Bank and the eastern sector of Jerusalem. Israel went on to capture the Golan Heights from Syria. The war ended on June 10.


- Anti-Defamation League