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  #1  
Old 12-10-2005, 10:36 AM
oreogod oreogod is offline
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Default Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

So I was cleaning my desk, and as I picked up the book it fell open to page 118...Defense against the semi-bluff.

This example doesnt give any preflop action, just postflop.

You hold Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You bet, your opponent raises.

Sklanksy says, given the combined chances that u could be beat already (by KT, AT, 2 pair, Set, etc), or that your opponent could also have a flush draw or str8 draw...that you should call, as your opponent is likely a favorite on the flop, and immediatly come out betting on the next card. Unless a heart, 6,9 or J falls. Probably folding if Villian raises again, as someone generally wont raise both the flop and turn on a semibluff.

Anyway, that got me thinking, that the line of calling the flop raise, betting out turn is always a weird one to me (and seems to beg for another raise from your opponent, whether they have a strong hand or not, because it looks pretty weak...but the bet, while looking kind of weak is also supposed to be putting them to the "test") and I usually forsake it for 3betting and going from there. Then I thought if I 3bet here, like usual, and get capped, I end up almost being forced to check the turn. I dunno, this may be pointless, Im just curious on ppls thoughts.

1.Do u ever follow Sklanksy's advice here (or is there a general situation in which u call a flop raise and donk turn).

2.What is your usual plan if u get raised here (include turn)?

3. And for kicks, lets say, instead of betting, u check-raise and get 3bet, what is your plan (include turn)?
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2005, 11:17 AM
Spicymoose Spicymoose is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

This looks like a standard stop and go to prevent the free card. In full ring games, I think this line is fine. I think that in Short Handed games, free cards are taken way less often, so this advice doesn't really need to be followed so much. I check raise the turn here, because villain will most certainly bet again.
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  #3  
Old 12-10-2005, 11:52 AM
POKhER POKhER is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

I love the turn donks but haven't read TOP. Must do this soon!

I'd also call and donk bet turn(Assuming big hands will raise us, Weaker hands will fold, Draws will call).

One down side is weak players calling us down with KT or something.

I understand the 9/J cards, but a 6 wouldnt bother me on this flop at all.

We honestly fearing 89? suprised really.

In response to question 3, If i get 3bet and bet into on the turn(I assume) i'll call the flop(pot size) and see what the turn brings. Probably folding to a brick unless our villan is very aggressive(call down/raise spiking any other card or bet calling a ten).
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

I usually 3-bet that on the flop figuring to have the best hand. Sometimes I call but its not to donk the turn its because I think we are wa/wb. Noone takes the free card with a flush draw anyway.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2005, 12:45 PM
Peter Harris Peter Harris is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

yeah it's just the stop and go. If i was parachuted into the hand without reads and preflop action, yeah i'd call the flop raise and donk a safe turn - if i am raised on the turn i fold.

so:
1) yes i'd do what S says here
2) i would bet-fold the turn
3) i wouldn't do this, but if i did, i'd call the three bet and bet-fold the turn (since this is the same turn line as above, this method costs me an extra SB which i why i dont do it).
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2005, 02:57 PM
Redeye Redeye is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a standard stop and go to prevent the free card. In full ring games, I think this line is fine. I think that in Short Handed games, free cards are taken way less often, so this advice doesn't really need to be followed so much. I check raise the turn here, because villain will most certainly bet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really agree with this and like the thought of c/ring the turn here. What are you doing if a heart falls on the turn though? I assume you are also folding to a 3-bet after your turn c/r?
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2005, 08:56 PM
oreogod oreogod is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

[ QUOTE ]

3) i wouldn't do this, but if i did, i'd call the three bet and bet-fold the turn (since this is the same turn line as above, this method costs me an extra SB which i why i dont do it).

[/ QUOTE ]

actually Im curious about this. Like say villian raised preflop, a lot of ppl would go for a check-raise here. Do u bet out instead? Id definitly bet out in an unraised pot for sure.

Also, since I play mainly HU or 4ish handed games I have to remember you can fold a little easier in 6max or full games
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2005, 05:08 AM
Peter Harris Peter Harris is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

[ QUOTE ]
actually Im curious about this. Like say villian raised preflop, a lot of ppl would go for a check-raise here. Do u bet out instead? Id definitly bet out in an unraised pot for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's why i said "if i was parachuted in" - if there was a PFR then yeah, i'd likely c/r this board. Then if called, i'd donk the turn and if raised...i'd reassess. (which means vomit and not know what to do)
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:42 AM
LoaferGee12 LoaferGee12 is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

[ QUOTE ]

1.Do u ever follow Sklanksy's advice here (or is there a general situation in which u call a flop raise and donk turn).


[/ QUOTE ]
I used to do this a lot with like TP medium or bad kicker hands, but I felt like I got raised pretty much everytime. I always ended up folding and I think it cost me. I rarely stop n go now, especially since check-calling produces the same result you want (1 bet on the street) and villain will almost always bet again here. The check-call avoids the situation you don't want(2 bets). The only other time I'll donk is to 3-bet with a monster against an aggro player. Otherwise, I think the best options are 3-betting, check-raising the turn (my fav), or if you're hand is too weak but just strong enough for SD then check-calling down.

[ QUOTE ]
2.What is your usual plan if u get raised here (include turn)?

[/ QUOTE ]

With that strong a kicker, I'm going to call-down. But again, it's situations like those which is why I avoid the stop n go.

[ QUOTE ]
3. And for kicks, lets say, instead of betting, u check-raise and get 3bet, what is your plan (include turn)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll call, and fold the river unimproved. It may not be the right move, but I hate raising and folding to a 3-bet. Also, improvement also includes the board-pairing to counterfeit a possible 2-pair.
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:52 AM
callydrias callydrias is offline
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Default Re: Curious for your thoughts (something from ToP)

[ QUOTE ]
Then I thought if I 3bet here, like usual, and get capped, I end up almost being forced to check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why capping for a free card is often a very effective play.
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