check/call check/call check/raise the river

[Xhad]

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This might be incredibly weak on my part, but most of the time in this scenario (3 or more c/c'ing fish, when I have position), if I still only have TPGK on the river, checked around to me, I check it through as well. Not only have I saved myself a nasty fish c/r, I save myself the fish c/c with a hand that happens to beat mine. Had one fish on a Vegas 3/6 table earlier this week c/c my TPTK bets the whole way...with a flopped SET.

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People online bluff more than in B&M's generally. Also if you bet into 3 people on the river and only win 30% of the time, you win money assuming your opponents are passive enough that they bluff rarely and you don't feel you have to pay off a raise.

EDIT: Well, that's not entirely true, they won't all always call, but the point remains that in fishy B&M's with 6-handed pots it's not uncommon to bet TPTK or an overpair into six people, get called in three places and still win. And yes, I play B&M more than online.

[cardcounter0]

I think you are correct in live B&M, TPGK is pretty useless unimproved when it is 6 to the flop, 3 to the river. Check it thru on the river.

Online low limit - the players are so bad, it is still worth betting the river when checked around to you. But I don't think the odds are there to crying call if you get a passive fish waking up and check/raising.

[cardcounter0]

I think you need to re-read the post. I do bet every street with TPTK. And I do bet the river. And since all the fish folded to the single check raiser, I don't get calls from several hands. So I don't know what situation you are talking about that I am playing so foolish.

You might read the post by jaxup in this thread, he seems to have the right idea.

Grunch:

You neglect to mention pot size in this hypothetical, but it sounds big. How often do you expect us to win? 1 out of ten times? 1 out of 30? The answer tells us what we should do.

[nomadtla]

I wish I folded more in this situation. We all hear the Gospel of not folding for one bet in a big pot. But there is a difference between a bet and a c/r. Yeah it still costs us the same but the meaning of the move from the fish's perspective is different. I will still value bet TPGK every time last to act on this river. But I'm begining to see more and more that calling that c/r is a leak. "I just want to see what they have." Most of them will play it the same regardless of who they're against so let some other fish call down that c/r and get a read. Some will do this with TPWK, hell I've done it a time or 2 against a player who can find the fold button. I think folding every time here is a crime, because it begs people to take shots at you. But I think calling down every time is a leak too. Find the players who are more likely to do this with weaker hands and call them down so the table see's they can't bully you with that play. But when a player who rarely ever c/r's and is not aggresive on any street except with the goods, I think even in a big pot this is a reasonable laydown. This comes down to reads more then size of the pot to me. Shillix said it one time in some post I can't remember and I will paraphrase it here. If someone walks by and puts a million dollars in a pot your playing at .5/1 and a player raises you on the river and your certain you are beat you are still wasing that dollar if you call, not "making a good call in a big pot".

[cardcounter0]

Thank You. My point exactly. Say you raise preflop. What do the fish put you on? AA? AK? Say an ace hits the flop, okay they say, you don't have AA, you must AK. And then they proceed to check/call and chase whatever it is that chasers chase.

Now when a passive player like that check raises you on the river, he is saying "I know you have Top Pair Top Kicker, and I have that hand beat" If you call his check raise and you do indeed have TPTK, then you are throwing your money away.

If a player were to actually show you his cards and he has a better hand, do you really need to do a pot odds/pot size calculation to call the river raise?

[cardcounter0]

1 out of 50. Now figure out how the pot gets big enough to justify a call of river c/r when it has been checked around and just called to you on every street.

Of course the sooner you get reads on players, the sooner you can make calls and folds, even when you don't have mathematical justification for it *gasp*. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

The sooner you get out multi-table low limit hell.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I will still value bet TPGK every time last to act on this river. But I'm begining to see more and more that calling that c/r is a leak...I think folding every time here is a crime, because it begs people to take shots at you. But I think calling down every time is a leak too.

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Cut down to the best parts, as this is the best post in this thread I think.

People not wanting to value bet on the river here because of a potential c/r remind me of people who say that they don't raise TT preflop because it makes them overplay it after the flop; people fixing a leak with a leak.

[McGahee]

Without reading any responses - I'm sure most people will villify you for generalizing too much, maybe rightfully so. The fact of the matter is though, the river does usually make their hand when they C/R and people make too many crying calls IMO.

i almost always just call it (i accept that its incorrect and a leak of mine), for metagame as much as anything else, although pot size is also very important, ie am i good 1 in X times here? for metagame though, if i see anyone fold to a couple of river checkraises i will be pulling plays on them all session. i actually dont find it happening to me too much though

i think when deciding whether to check it through (and sorry for being so basic here but its how i think about it) is to just give the vil or vils a hand range/s and how much the comparitive mistake will be...

lets say there are 2 fish, and a flush comes on the river.

and lets say the fish are identical and each has a 50% chance of having MP/TPBK or having a flush draw.

that means
a) 1 in 4 times they are both paying you off
b) 1 in 2 times one is checkraising
c) 1 in 4 times both are checkraising

so when you bet with the intention of calling 1 back but not 2:

you win 2 once, lose 2 twice and lose 1 once for an overall ev of -3BB... so it would be better to check it through

of course in game its never this simple and most rivers should be value bet but thats just a basic way of thinking about it.