party 30/60 hand I'm not happy with

[Paluka]

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You seem to fold a lot of winners. Or maybe those are just the hands you write about.
But it is hard to overcall the river.

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I tend to post hands like this. It is part of my game I'm focusing on.

[shemp]

Why put him on an ace? I guess the theory is that he has two pair or a set and is afraid that you won't protect your J. I think he has a stupid J that he didn't want to fold, and is taking a shot, but maybe because I know the results. I think you are good here more than 1 in 10. You have the BB beat nearly every single time, so the question is does 1 in 10 unknown play this goofily.... ?

I say this, because you might find yourself saying he has to be a goofball to fire twice here, and I'll find out because utg called him down -- rather than, is the pot big enough to cover the possibility that he is a goofball, because utgs call is pretty irrelevant. I mean, you prolly woulda called if utg folded. And if the turn got checked through and then he came out betting, you prolly woulda called for a smaller pot... no?

The point I was trying to make is that you didn't base the call decision so much on the likelihood your hand was good as much as your desire to see the hand. In retrospect, if that was most important, fold the turn.

[gonores]

Wouldn't raising the turn for a free showdown accomplish more in this spot?

[Boris]

This thread is pretty funny. The hand is a pretty clear fold on the river. But then when you post the results everyone starts saying you should've called down.

[shemp]

Why is it a clear fold on the river but not on the turn?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Why not raise preflop? If you have QJs you are raising preflop, right? QJo doesn't seem much worse against bad playing early limpers.

[Justin A]

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Wouldn't raising the turn for a free showdown accomplish more in this spot?

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This is what I thought too, but I think I saw the results too soon.

[ggbman]

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This thread is pretty funny. The hand is a pretty clear fold on the river. But then when you post the results everyone starts saying you should've called down.

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I agree 100%. Like i said, i think there are many cases where a fold on the turn is appropriate as well. People, don't be so results oriented. Overcalling 2 streets with second pair medium kicker is a VERY bad plan for almost any situation, and nothing about this hand makes me think this is an exception.

[shemp]

It may be results oriented to say call the river. And I do like folding the turn. But I think calling the river is consistent with calling the turn. What I'd like is someone to explain why calling the turn and folding the river is correct taking into account the size of the pot and the likelihood that UTG is second best to you.

[skp]

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why not call the flop and raise a non-overcard turn?


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If one decides to wait for the turn to raise, I am not sure that an overcard on the turn should dissuade us from raising; in fact, it may give us more reason to raise i.e. the flop bettor will often follow through with a bet regardless of whether the turn card hit him and there is reason for him to think that the turn overcard hit you (if you raise the turn) given that you just called the flop on a board bereft of draws (or at least, it is my recollection that the flop was rainbow).

Also, given that you have QJ and the only kickers that beat you are a King and an Ace, a turn overcard is frequently better than a turn undercard vis a vis the original flop bettor. That is to say, if a ten comes on the turn, it's worse for you than a King on the turn because that ten may give the bettor JT which now vaults his hand over yours. If the King gives him KJ, then that's not as big a deal as he had you beat anyway.

hm...reviewing this, I suspect that my writing skills aren't up to par today...whatever...your reading skills should make up for my poor writing.