Stopping a leak.

[bobbycharles]

Is this a leak in my game? What is the standard play?

First rotation of MTT...no reads yet. All stacks approx. equal.

Hero in SB with A4s.
MP2 open raises with 3x BB.
MP3 cold calls.
Folded to me.

Hero??

I have the tendancy to call the raise early in a tourney and see the flop. Leaky?

[KneeCo]

In low buy-ins you might make this call sometimes if you are really confident you can avoid trouble and can outplay the table on the flop.

But generally, this is an easy fold I think.

[gobboboy]

In party tournaments with 1000 chip stacks and 10/15 blinds I will call this. The implied odds in party low buy in tournaments are essentially your opponents' stacks. If you make your flush or two pair or trips kicker, you're likely making a lot more on your 30 chip investment.

[Blindcurve]

My first impression is to fold. You have a small suited ace in a disadvantageous position with one player who has shown some strength and another willing to make a call. Your ace is most likely dominated, and at the very least will be difficult to play with any certainty. Because of your position, you won't have the luxury of determining your odds to continue on any decent draw. Any perfect flop is going to freeze your opponents (barring 235r or some sort of innocuous A4x flop), so I'm not sure you're getting the implied odds to continue.

I, personally, would save my stack for a better situation. That's just based on snippets I've heard, things I've read and my own relationship with risk.

However, to risk a threadjack and add a question, (and here I hope our more mathematically inclined friends would help): What numbers should we be considering in order to continue here? Pot odds of 3 to 1 on the call. Should we be thinking: do I have a 1 in 4 chance of winning this pot? The odds on my hitting a hand reasonably sure of winning I'd put at 7 to 1. (To get this I just took the odds of flopping a flush draw and subtracted 1: NOTHING scientific there. So according to the "mitochlorian count", this is a fold.) Is this a pot equity question? How can we determine our pot equity in this situation? I suppose we could put our opponents on a range of hands, but without reads this seems suspect.

To the OP: It also seems like with such a dearth of information, our hand is more trouble than it's worth.

I think it's more important to know how to consider this question than it is what the specific answer is.

Hope we get some help. Long post on what seems like a short question.

FOITNOF,

-D.

[Blindcurve]

My first impression is to fold. You have a small suited ace in a disadvantageous position with one player who has shown some strength and another willing to make a call. Your ace is most likely dominated, and at the very least will be difficult to play with any certainty. Because of your position, you won't have the luxury of determining your odds to continue on any decent draw. Any perfect flop is going to freeze your opponents (barring 235r or some sort of innocuous A4x flop), so I'm not sure you're getting the implied odds to continue.

I, personally, would save my stack for a better situation. That's just based on snippets I've heard, things I've read and my own relationship with risk.

However, to risk a threadjack and add a question, (and here I hope our more mathematically inclined friends would help): What numbers should we be considering in order to continue here? Pot odds of 3 to 1 on the call. Should we be thinking: do I have a 1 in 4 chance of winning this pot? The odds on my hitting a hand reasonably sure of winning I'd put at 7 to 1. (To get this I just took the odds of flopping a flush draw and subtracted 1: NOTHING scientific there. So according to the "mitochlorian count", this is a fold.) Is this a pot equity question? How can we determine our pot equity in this situation? I suppose we could put our opponents on a range of hands, but without reads this seems suspect.

To the OP: It also seems like with such a dearth of information, our hand is more trouble than it's worth.

I think it's more important to know how to consider this question than it is what the specific answer is.

Hope we get some help. Long post on what seems like a short question...

FOITNOF,

-D.

[betgo]

I posted something just like this on the 1-table forum, where I came in as the 2nd caller from the CO with A2s the 1st hand of a Party SNG. My preflop play wasn't the point of the post, but I took tremendous abuse for this play.

I like this call better with position from the CO or button or with a bigger discount from the BB. From late position there is some value in coming in with any cards to steal or otherwise use position. In the SB you are 1st to act. When you call from the CO, button, or SB, you are hoping someone else will flat call. You would really like even deeper money or 3 people already in the pot.

For this play to be EV+, the other players have to be pretty bad, probably loose so they so allin with top pair, but maybe weak/tight so you can steal. You have to be a better player than your opponents, making good reads, good steals, and good laydowns.

Also, if an ace flops, and you don't make aces up or a draw, you have to fold to any action. You are really playing for aces up, trips, or a nut flush. There is potential to win a big pot with aces up versus AK or AQ, nut flush versus lower flush, or trip 4s where no one thinks you have a 4 in a raised pot. Any time you flop a flush draw, you will atleast have an overcard or top pair. A lot of times you may wind up shoving all your chips in on the flop with a semibluff with a strong draw.

[ekky]

Its leaky because the implied odds of this hand are pretty weak, and you can easily get trapped committing chips to the pot with the second best hand.

Generally i'd fold this without giving it much consideration.

Now, if it were 5/7 suited.....

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
you can easily get trapped committing chips to the pot with the second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How? Any hand you make with this is close to the nuts. A nut flush, aces up, trips with top kicker.

[ekky]

[ QUOTE ]
How? Any hand you make with this is close to the nuts. A nut flush, aces up, trips with top kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pairing the Ace and not the kicker.


If the goal is just to flop trips/flush/2 pair..and check/fold any ace, (or make a modest attempt at the pot) then its marginal at best.

If there is some intention of taking the pot away even when missing your hand, it makes it slighly more appealing.

When there are relatively deep stacks, I tend to prefer hands that can give you *hidden* nuts.. rather then ones that make your hand strength pretty obvious.

A/4 suited isn't going to make many hands that conceals its strength.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Pairing the Ace and not the kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

You would have to be an idiot to put much in with TPNK. Too many people play aces. That's why I like this hand better from late position than the blinds. It is easier to tell if your pair of aces is good.


[ QUOTE ]
If the goal is just to flop trips/flush/2 pair..and check/fold any ace, (or make a modest attempt at the pot) then its marginal at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You need loose fishy opponents who will put too much in when you hit big. Even still this is a real marginal play.


[ QUOTE ]
If there is some intention of taking the pot away even when missing your hand, it makes it slighly more appealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is another reason I like this in late position rather than the blinds.


[ QUOTE ]
When there are relatively deep stacks, I tend to prefer hands that can give you *hidden* nuts.. rather then ones that make your hand strength pretty obvious.

A/4 suited isn't going to make many hands that conceals its strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trip 4s in a raised pot and aces up would not be real obvious.