Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)

[Nick M]

I agree completely about SS play. My defintion of High Ceiling play

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High Ceiling is poker played on both the preflop level and the post flop level.

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I think playing preflop poker when it's the bubble and/or you're SS is completely and totally correct.

[lastchance]

Oh... Ok...

BTW, I think in that case, the best players on the forum play "high-ceiling," and we want to play L1-L3 as best we can...

[Nick M]

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So in other words this forum is relatively useless because we don't know the opponents and therefore are ineligible to comment on a play.

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I think you know this isn't true. Please be realistic. People asked all of us a question and we will answer that question the best we possibly can given the information we have. But I believe that there's a lot more to the right answer than chip stacks, position, blinds, and opinions on calling range of opponents.

[Nick M]

Yes I agree. I posted after this reply and said I play on Pokerstars. But I also replied to "lastchance" here...

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I agree completely about SS play. My defintion of High Ceiling play


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High Ceiling is poker played on both the preflop level and the post flop level.


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I think playing preflop poker when it's the bubble and/or you're SS is completely and totally correct

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[eastbay]

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Just because you put this through a simulator, pick some calling ranges, and it says over 292623462394694624643 SNGs this play will profit you %@&%!* EV doesn't mean you should make it. There is more to the game than a computer telling you what is a +EV play and what isn't. Does the computer know that right before you decided to push 109o into the chip leader's BB he just lost a heart breaker to the all in small stack???? NO it doesn't know that.


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Actually, yes it does, because you have told it. That information is contained in how you've determine the calling range, which is in fact the ONLY way that BB's "context" can affect his play. Nice try, though. The way in which BB is going to be affected is something for you to figure out at your discretion. It is very subjective. The idea that people who are analyzing hands by these methods have missed something by taking out the "people element" is only a charge made by someone who doesn't understand how the analysis works, what it says, and what it doesn't say. It simply isn't true. It is simply a way of quantifying the consequences of your subjective judgments about a player's actions.


As for the rest of your post, you seem to be saying that deep stack poker is different from short stack poker, and that the edges are potentially larger. This isn't exactly a revelation, although it's worth pointing out to a complete neophyte, although I think that can be done in a sentence or two.

What someone may be misled by in your post is this "ceiling" you're talking about is something you can choose. It isn't. It's dictated by the structure of the game. That's primarily why you see so much discussion of preflop strategy here. It's because you don't typically have any viable alternative. Yes, the edges are smaller, and the cards and odds and math are more important, but that's the nature of the online SnG. That's just the way it is.

eastbay

[Nick M]

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You say you prefer to use your instincts to guide your decisions, but in the example hand you gave what sort of instincts are you using?

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in the example I said this, but your quote cut it off...

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Does the computer know that right before you decided to push 109o into the chip leader's BB he just lost a heart breaker to the all in small stack????

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I believe this is a great example of why I wouldn't push this right now. This can only be felt I think.

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but a good players "instincts" in the spot will assuredly match what is mathematically correct.

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I think this is a great point. I completely agree with you. A great player knows what the best play is or about what the best play is. It will probably be very close to what's mathematically correct. But I also think great instincts factor in things the computer can not see. For instance my example of the heart breaker loss to the SS. It also does not factor in YOUR table image. Great instincts know when it may not be right to push because you have pushed the last 3 hands straight. On the last one people were taking an awfully long time to make decisions. Possibly implying that they were getting fed up with your pushing.

Really good point about instincts being mathematical without actually doing the calculations, it's really true.

[djj6835]

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You say you prefer to use your instincts to guide your decisions, but in the example hand you gave what sort of instincts are you using?


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in the example I said this, but your quote cut it off...


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I assume you are talking about the portion where you mention the fact that the BB just lost a hand to the short stack. This fact can be accounted for in a mathematical calculation to determine what the most +EV play is. I would assume the BB's calling range is higher if he is frustrated about the loss in an attempt to regain his lost chips. If I think the BB is going to call me 100% of the time then I wouldn't push here. I suppose I am using some instincts here, but it still all comes back to what I know is mathematically correct. My instincts merely tell me to widen the BB's calling range.

edit: btw, I agree with much of what you said regarding post flop play considering you play at pokerstars. I wouldn't recommend this for Party Poker. I assumed you were talking about Party when I first read your post.

[Big Limpin']

Awesome post.
I was born and raised on 1500chip SnGs.
The only difference was that you played HC for a greater # of hands per SnG before the LC "go apeshit" phase kicked in.
Ergo, a good HC player came into the LC segment with more ammo.
Then i moved to Party.
The LC segment is pitifully short.
For all intents and purposes, PP SnG may as well start at 800/1000 chips at t50/100 (with 2-5 arbitraty villians gone AWOL
That is where the profit comes from.
We all pay 1.1xBI...and 5-8 of us will "gamboooool" for the prize pool.
Somewhat facetious, of course there is some "skill" in LC, but really, its more a case of you just not having a LACK of LC smarts.
I will play 7 people, in a coinflipping roundrobin, for last man standing stakes of 50/30/20. IF im the sh*t, i may be a little more likely than anyone else at the table to get the top prizes.
But not my much.

[Nick M]

so you agree with me hahaha

actually one thing I saw and want to answer...

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You say that your strategy of correct postflop play "can defend against variance", but you provide nothing to substantiate that claim.

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In my post I write...

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You don't just get to play your cards, you can play your opponents cards and take EV that does not belong to you. High Ceiling play has range. It doesn't just steal blinds it steals POTS. Low Ceiling takes EV that does not belong to you sure, the blinds. But High Ceiling is involved in the action and can take advantage of the action.

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I probably should have been more specific. What I say here is variance is determined comepletely and totally by losing hands. If you never lose a hand there will be no variance. That means that if you can take pots that you would otherwise lose if you should down, you're defending against variance. I think LC preflop defends against variance because you steal blinds. Blinds that you can win without having the best hand. But like I said in my post, HC play takes not just blinds, when you switch to LC, but it takes POTS.

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

Benjamin Franklin

[Nick M]

totally ahhaha NH [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]