Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)

[Slim Pickens]

There is something we can never quantify: the fraction of the time a given opponent will fold to a given bet, or alternatively, the fraction of the time an opponent will make a given play in a given situation. Accurate estimation of this is critical to the validity of the mathematical answer, but it is difficult, and even more difficult for someone who is good at it to explain how to do it to someone who is not. That's the whole problem with trying to get a purely mathematical answer to a push/fold/moron debate. I agree with the OP 100%, but I'm happy to exist as a Low Ceiling player until I have a better understanding of the game.

SlimP

[lastchance]

1500 chips = a lot more postflop poker and "high-ceiling" strategy (which is the same as postflop poker). 800 chips on Party with people who will not fold middle-pair = little-no postflop poker and insanely few moves that are not "all-in."

[kyro]

Then I hope you realize how ridiculous your post is to the majority of us. Go back and read hands that take place on PS. You won't be seeing the same PUSH IT/FOLD IT as much. We aren't robots here, rather, we make the most +EV play for us, and oftentimes, that play is the same thing over and over.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned this in the Post. I only play on Pokerstars.


[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerstars and Party SNGs call for somewhat different approaches to the game. Obviously when the stacks are deeper, there's more room to play other than push/fold, specifically in mid-early stages, but also later on. However, the normal aggressive pushing strategy that is often advocated here is essentially correct for Stars too, specifically for the bubble and around bubble situations. Trying to play in a different manner, i.e, more post-flop, smaller than all-in raises etc, when the stacks are short/very short, will usually lead you to making costly mistakes.

Actually, what you say in your post, is not very different than what many avarage SNG players think. They hate those push/fold "2+2" style players, and think they don't know to play better, i.e, play post flop, use "fancy moves", reads, etc. Obviously, those avarage players are usually wrong and also are losing players. They don't like the push/fold strategy, because it does not allow them to "play poker".

With regard to your comments about reads, well reads mean little, or even very little, when stacks are that short (although we still use reads when calling/pushing ranges are discussed here). That's the simple truth.

[ilya]

I think you're looking for something from poker psychologically that SnGs can't really offer. Play uber-deep-stack NL ring.

[dmmikkel]

[ QUOTE ]
When the cards don't want you to win, then you have variance. And you have no say in this either. This is Low Ceiling. No range. No way to avoid variance in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way to get around variance no matter how you play. Some forms have lesser varians, other more variance.

[ QUOTE ]
you can play your opponents cards and take EV that does not belong to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense to me. At any given situation in any form of poker, there's one move that has the most EV. It's the move that make you the most money in this and every future hand. How can you get more EV than max EV?

[ QUOTE ]
Low Ceiling takes EV that does not belong to you sure, the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get this either. It's +EV to steal blinds. I know that and therefor the EV belongs to me.

[ QUOTE ]
In Low Ceiling play the cards break even. This means the ROI for a person is not unlimited. There's only a set amount of ROI one can achieve by play Low Ceiling poker. You can do much worse but you can never do better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cards break even in any game. Some games you just play them differently. Some say cards might not matter if you can outplay your opponent, but it does. If you can make it +EV calling his raise with 72o, then you're just playing 72o better than your opponent.

And ROI is never unlimited in any game. It is impossible. Unlimited ROI would mean you're getting infinite odds (obviously a good bet)

----

To sum up what I think.

I think you somehow don't get what kind of math lies behind any form of poker because you keep talking about EV that doesn't belong to you (or EV that doesn't really exist) and unlimited ROI.

Basicly I think your biggest mistake is thinking like this:

[ QUOTE ]
There is just one problem with it, your results are completely and totally dictated by the cards and the odds

[/ QUOTE ]

You're basicly saying some forms of poker are not dictated by cards and odds. Absolutely everything in poker is math and odds.

You may say it's a people game, but reads are nothing but numbers and variables. You may know what he has. You may know what he thinks you have. You may think you know what he thinks you have. Still it's 100% math. It's math that's so complex no one will ever master it 100%, but that doesn't mean it isn't math.

A move you make that is against all books, but that you make based on instinct and feeling, can still be mathematically proven to be the correct move.

--

Edit: no point what so ever but this was my 109th post and i play the 109s. wee [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Better move up before my 215th post (what happens after that i don't dare think about :P)

[Matt Walker]

I don't see why low ceiling play and high ceiling play are mutually exclusive as you define them. Can't you play one with deep stacks and the other with less than 10x stacks? I think thats what most players on here are doing.

[Nick M]

I'm not looking for anything. I like playing SNGs. I like the way I play them. I like winning. Not sure what you think I'm making this post for but it's not complaining about SNGs, or trying to figure out how to change SNGs to suit my style, wants, or needs. You might be misunderstanding my post. I'm not trying to get something from SNGs that it's not giving me. I'm just trying to explain that you can beat SNGs for a very good ROI without ICM calculation and strictly low ceiling play. And you can have some fun doing it.

[lastchance]

At Pokerstars. :P

[Nick M]

I'm going to try and answer everyone's questions here. It seems that people are taking many things out of context and that't not very productive.