Keeping fishies around

[Russ McGinley]

Live $2 table

Table is full of your typical card room fish. Only one player (other than me) thinks about his hands preflop, and this guy seriously asked me to be his poker coach.

Before I left for the poker room this morning, I happened to read a passage in HEPFAP about, when in loose passive games with loads of fish, you can try and NOT raise your good but not great hands and allow the fishies to limp in. While you cost yourself BB preflop by not raising, you gain it back when you flop a big hand and they chase you down with whatever.

So its limped to me in MP1 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Normally I auto-raise this but I decided to limp. Additionally, I was pretty much feared by almost everyone at the table and a lot of my raises were making everyone go away. So 7 people to the flop:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Monster flop for me. SB bets right out, two calls, and I call. My thinking here is to get all these players behind me to call as well and build a huge pot. While my hand is far from invulnerable, I am not too fearful of anything right now. I believe one person mucked, so 6 to the turn:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB leads again. Couple of callers to me, and I call again. At the time, my line was that I was going to raise the river (hoping the river was a blank), which would completely confuse the fishies and they would call with whatever they had because they were lost. I believe we lost one more, so 5 to the river:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

And my dreams are shattered as the board pairs. However, a player who had folded immediately threw his arms up in disgust at the sight of the river. This made me pretty certain nobody had a FH since he obviously folded one. Of course, this shut down all the action. I bet, got two callers, and showed my winner.

A couple of the really big fishies at the other end of the table talk about how they would have been raising their asses off with that hand. Of course they have exactly zero respect from the rest of the table, so they can raise and raise and raise because of their image of being reckless idiots.

I realize my play was not standard and I likely cost myself anywhere from 4-7 BB's by not raising. My question is: is there any validity to this plan of action? Again, I decided to take this route because of my table image (tight-aggressive winner) and building a monster pot by keeping all these knuckleheads in as long as possible.

[Yobz]

You have to raise at some point (like, every point)...HEPFAP assumes that you will bet your monsters and take down huge pots you made, not that your passive friends were making (it wasnt nearly as large as it could have been unless this table *really* respects you).
You need to loosen your image, raise crap all over the place and make them fold their better hands until they catch on, then become a TAG again

[Sykes]

Raise the turn. You'll still get callers from anyone with a random Q/2 pair/gutshot/J9/KJ.

[thesharpie]

I would raise every street. I'd start raising worse hands in this position first in, and I hope you're raising your flush draws on the flop with 3 opponents in. If so they don't know whether you have a flush or are raising for value and a free card. Of course they don't know what you're doing anyway, but I bet you make more money off of this hand playing it aggressively from the start.

[Dave G.]

I would raise the flop. Your opponents will call any bet / raise with any lone [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Anyone with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is not going to fold here, and they would be correct not to. There might be straight possibilities that someone is playing for too and they can't fold here correctly. A lot of bad players will habitually call here just to see if the turn improves their awful holding. You are missing bets from these people.

The same is true on the turn. People with the flush draw are not going anywhere, so take their money from them while you can. They're not going to call your river bet with busted draws. You have to get their money before then.

[ErrantNight]

what TERRIBLE play on the flop and turn. really, unreal. you missed two chances to trap the field for multiple bets.

this is matched only by the terrible way that you played preflop, in not raising this.

which is matched ONLY by your "my dreams are shattered when the board pairs" nonsense on the river.

no wonder you can't beat .50/1. this hand is god-awful terribleness on a huge level.

raise preflop. you have an equity edge. you have a strong hand. frickin' raise.

raise the flop. you have the field trapped. if another crub falls on any street you lose everyone who doesn't have the K of crubs.

raise the turn. since you raised the flop, you probably can only bet this turn, but if you can, you're raising again, like you just don't care.

at least you got the river right, bet.

[HajiShirazu]

OMG
Ok, HPFAP was written with the assumption that your opponents are good. But even then, they used an offsuit hand as an example. With a good suited hand you give a ton of money by not raising as opposed to the moderate amount you would lose from not raising AJo.
Then you flop a flush, and 3 people will certainly call, and anyone behind you with a club will probably call 2 cold also, but you don't raise because you want to slowplay. Horrible, you lost tons of bets when your opponents were drawing dead.
Then the turn comes, and it's a perfect situation for you even though you slowplayed, no club, no board pair, and you get bet into again. So you raise here, right. No raise? Gag.
Then on the river, of course everybody pussies out because they think somebody has a boat/flush so you miss bets. Also, on the river, the fish don't have some miracle draw to chase, and they can't all have payoff hands, so you dont get those calls either.

[Entity]

I like it all assuming you were planning on making up the lost value on 6th and 7th streets. Plus, the metagame considerations of calling with the best hand the whole time are huge in a game where people aren't paying attention.

[milesdyson]

Here's a LOLRUS for you, seeing as how you found a way to not once raise an awesome hand preflop or the nuts postflop.

[hicherbie]

the limp i wouldnt make from MP+1....limping with AJo with limpers in front isnt a bad idea (i think thats an example in SSHE) because AJ isnt a very strong multiway hand, and you have a better chance of protecting your hand if you dont raise with people in in front of you. the same idea is expressed (in more detail) in HEFAP. AJs however is a raise i think...the money you make from flopping tptk will more than make up for the money you "lose" knocking people out of this pf when you hit a nut flush.

bet the flop, turn and river. you could have trapped these people in a big pot where they would be getting odds to draw.....to a second best hand.