100NL : hand series versus tough LAG - help!

[wslee00]

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stop betting like a pussy when you have nothing.

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wow - this little snippet sums it up nicely

[tripp0807]

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Don't keep playing with air. It's got lousy showdown value.

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So open raise AK, and then just check-fold the flop with a whiff? Somethinge like 66% of the time I still have the best hand, but I guess it's not putting my stack in on.

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No. I said that they have lousy SHOWDOWN value, not lousy chances of winning the hand without a showdown. I guess xorbie summed up what I meant:

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stop betting like a pussy when you have nothing.

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If you're going to fire bullets with air, make sure they have a chance of hitting the target. Pot size bets work better than this 1/3-1/2 pot crap.

Hand 1) I love the PF and flop bet, especially with AK and a lousy flop but I'm checking after that also consider this a bad beat it was

Hand 2) Ditto

Hand 3) no pf raise, I'd fold to flop bet. looks like he got to you

Hand 4) ok

Hand 5) River all in, tell me you got your money back [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Apparently you guys don't play with the same calling stations that I do. To me, telling him to make bigger CB's is just telling him to lose more money.

The pot in the first hand was $37 and villian called him down with 66. Is $2 more on the flop and $4 or $5 on the turn going to make villian fold?

Wait until you hit a flop. Make the same bets, let him call you down and lose. Some calling stations simply won't be bluffed until you win one from them.

[cbloom]

Ok, I appreciate the replies, but I think the "bet more" line is much too simplistic. For one thing I was betting around 1/2 pot with hands and without, so betting 1/2 pot doesnt make it look like I have air. I have no reason to believe that betting pot on the flop would make him fold bottom pair. 60% of the time with hands like AK I'll flop no pair, so betting more for continuation just means I'm putting more money in the pot with no pair.

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The button steal hand is a tough river call but if you're not willing to make this call you're better off just folding pf.


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Hmm.. well, I don't want to just become a vanilla player because of him. I want to be able to show down a top pair when it's good and fold when it's not. He's still going to make big hands and I don't want to pay off when he does. Maybe that means I just need to play tighter preflop so I can be more sure my hands are good?

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The final hand, I don't like the flop 3 bet, I don't think you've got good FE to make that move, and he's likely to pay you off if you improve on the turn anyway. Just call his c/r.

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Are you assuming I'm behind on the flop? When he check-raises the flop I think I'm still ahead there often. He's shown he can check-raise with air, and will call with bottom pair, etc. He could also just have a draw with no made hand. Certainly when I 3-bet and he calls then I know I'm in trouble, but if I just fold to his check-raise that's inviting more check-raises. If I just call and don't improve I have to check-fold the turn?

[aces_dad]

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Ok, I appreciate the replies, but I think the "bet more" line is much too simplistic. For one thing I was betting around 1/2 pot with hands and without, so betting 1/2 pot doesnt make it look like I have air. I have no reason to believe that betting pot on the flop would make him fold bottom pair. 60% of the time with hands like AK I'll flop no pair, so betting more for continuation just means I'm putting more money in the pot with no pair.

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You're getting a lot of these responses because the default cb size recommended on this forum is PSB, not 1/2 PSB. If 1/2PSB is your default cb you'll get advice to raise that as well. Basically you're laying too good odds for others to call and not getting enough value from your made hands.

If you're not hitting the flop, and your CB's aren't working against this guy, quit making them. Bluffy LAG's are the players I'm least likely to cb against.

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The button steal hand is a tough river call but if you're not willing to make this call you're better off just folding pf.


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Hmm.. well, I don't want to just become a vanilla player because of him. I want to be able to show down a top pair when it's good and fold when it's not. He's still going to make big hands and I don't want to pay off when he does. Maybe that means I just need to play tighter preflop so I can be more sure my hands are good?


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I see two options for playing against him, and both should be profitable. Either tighten up and only play strong hands against him (the so called vanilla you don't want to do), or make these tough river calls with marginal hands TPNK. My point is that if you're not willing to enter the marginal decisions he is going to face you with when playing these type of hands, you should be careful to not enter them.

There's nothing wrong with so called vanilla against these players BTW, it's up to you how you want to play them.

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The final hand, I don't like the flop 3 bet, I don't think you've got good FE to make that move, and he's likely to pay you off if you improve on the turn anyway. Just call his c/r.

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Are you assuming I'm behind on the flop? When he check-raises the flop I think I'm still ahead there often. He's shown he can check-raise with air, and will call with bottom pair, etc. He could also just have a draw with no made hand. Certainly when I 3-bet and he calls then I know I'm in trouble, but if I just fold to his check-raise that's inviting more check-raises. If I just call and don't improve I have to check-fold the turn?

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I am not folding to the flop c/r, there is a good chance we're ahead and if not have a good draw to get there. I just don't like the 3bet because there is no reason to semi-bluff this player; we should be looking to draw cheaply and get paid when we hit. Based upon what you've shown, he will pay us off. Also if we keep it cheap getting to showdown with these marginal holdings will be easier.

[cbloom]

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There's nothing wrong with so called vanilla against these players BTW, it's up to you how you want to play them.


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Right, I don't have a problem with just tightening up preflop. The thing I hate is with deep stacks just being willing to get allin with top pair, giving up on reading him for sets, flushes, etc.

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I am not folding to the flop c/r, there is a good chance we're ahead and if not have a good draw to get there. I just don't like the 3bet because there is no reason to semi-bluff this player; we should be looking to draw cheaply and get paid when we hit. Based upon what you've shown, he will pay us off. Also if we keep it cheap getting to showdown with these marginal holdings will be easier.

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Ok, so presumably check-call small on the turn, check-fold to big bets. I guess that's the best possible. He has shown that he'll attack pot-size with air after I show weakness, so that's entirely possible and I may fold the best hand + a good draw, but such is life.

BTW on the last hand he had QQ and I was drawing dead after the turn gave him a house, but he could've just had Q2 and the result would have been the same.

[tomtemor]

Just some thoughts on hand #3. I see this line now and then and it's a bluff about 90% of the time in my experience. It just doesn't make since, I mean with what hand would someone play like this?

He is outdrawing you and you will lose no matter what as long as that happens. He is paying way to much for his hands. With AK you will win 2/3 of the time so your best bet is to get as much money in up front as you can. With the flop that came off I would have bet 1/2 pot and 2/3 of the time it's a fold, he hit a six it happens. 8x the bb is a good amount based on having no knowledge of the table myself, sometimes you want to limp and hope for a steal and push, sometimes you can get 20x the pot. The problem I see is he is not folding to your semi bluffs. So don't semibluff. He bluffed you out of a pot, showed it. And then did some real damage with the fullhouse. You did have an openended straight draw at the the flop with middle pair, i think you overbet it vs calling.

I would try to act tilted, ie limp in often and try to catch him with a big hand. But try dropping the semi bluffs.

[cbloom]

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Just some thoughts on hand #3. I see this line now and then and it's a bluff about 90% of the time in my experience. It just doesn't make since, I mean with what hand would someone play like this?

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The reason I folded is that he'd bet similarly on a previous hand with the flush. Generally in the past he would bet normal sizes with weak hands and continuation bluffs, then bet huge when he had big hands and get paid off well.