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  #1  
Old 12-20-2005, 02:49 AM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default This Ought To Get Some Replies

Since, in the long run, the busier these forums are, the more money I make, I couldn't let this comment from Phil153 get buried in another thread. So I repeat it here:

"The fact is that some races and cultures just aren't cut out for civilised society. They breed like rabbits and exhibit widespread features of low intelligence, poor coping skills and aggressive, anti social behaviour. Half of all murders (and much of the crime) in the U.S. are caused by a particular race, and as a minority group, I'm convinced they don't have the brain capacity to survive and contribute positively in modern civilisation. Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race remain shockingly low. They are on the border of retardation. Even the elite of this race fail to excel. Compare this with any other minority and the results are clear to anyone without a bias. Asians routinely outperform whites and are disproportionately represented at elite universities, despite being a minority and in spite of poverty and limited integration into society."
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:30 AM
maurile maurile is offline
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

I think if someone is basically going to call a whole bunch of other people stupid, he should take care to make sense.

"Widespread features of low intelligence"? I don't know what he means in place of 'widespread,' but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean widespread.

"Half of all murders are caused by a particular race"? Uh, no. They are caused by people of a particular race.

" . . . as a minority group, I'm convinced . . ." So the author is a minority group?

"Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race. . ." A verb in the subordinate clause would be helpful. As written, it makes no sense.

In any event, racism is nothing new. Thomas Sowell has some interesting things to say about race and IQ here, here, and here.
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

Obviously the initial poster of that comment is a moron - I suspect if this one does as you suggest, get a lot of replies, they're mostly gonna be in the form of 'hey, retard!' - since there's really not much to say on this one. It's so easily dismissed.

There have been countless studies on race and intelligence, genetically speaking there is no link, none whatsoever. It's true that you do get lower average SAT scores with blacks (which I assume is who he means, but for some reason isn't straight speaking enough to say) - but this is a socio-economic thing. Poor people score worse, white or black or whatever, there's just more blacks in poverty.

And while we're on this subject, I am of the school of thought that there are actually huge cultural differences between races. And I don't agree at all with the often heard implication that acknowledging/discussing those differences is racist. But this guys post wasn't that, it was just an idiotic rant with no attention paid to any facts at all, and presumably rooted in racist scorn.
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:52 AM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

The phraseology of that poster clearly indicates racist attitudes. Nonetheless he does describe somewhat accurately many of the evident failings of black americans to prosper in their own country, a country in which many of their forbears were already living here in a state of slavery before those of many whites whose ancestors came over in colonial times (first slaves to US came to Jamestown colony aboard a Dutch slave ship).

This topic is very important to America's future though. Although many of the ills and failings of blacks to prosper in the US have to do with the legacy of racism which still continues to some degree, there are also evident defects in the dominant black culture.

So many black political leaders just ascribe everything to racism without having the courage to look inside their own coummunities for a large if not in fact majority cause of their problems. And when an influential black such as Bill Cosby does dare to make such criticisms, he is derided as little better than an Uncle Tom. Also those same black political leaders always reject such comparisons to the the Jewish and Asian minority coummunities which have thrived here so well.

The cultural defects that are most evident are young girls barely past puberty having children and having to raise those children mostly without a father around. And the drug and violence culture which is always blamed solely on poverty is also a large defect and accounts for the high proportion of black males in the 20s and 30s being incarcerated. The lessening influence of black churches has contributed to these problems. And too often when even black leaders fall prey to such problems like Marion Barry, they are partially defended by blacks who always see a racial attack, when they are the ones who need to take repsonsibility for corruption and cronyism in majority black cities and expel those leaders who are found guilty of such actions themselves.

And there is nothing to mind mind that greater exemplifies the cultural failings of the dominant black culture than the gang rap phenomenon. When you look at the contribution of black musicians to almost every genre of music from Blues to Rock, Soul to Jazz and even Country, then the true bankruptness of the so-called music that is rap is seen for what it is. And especially when it is a vehicle for promoting a gangster drug culture and one that encourages the abuse and degradation of women.

But there are two larger issues, and which are shown by those derided comparisons to other minority coummunities. The first is simply that there does not exist now in the black community an entrepreneurial business spirit and high regard for higher education. Although such comments run the risk of providing fodder for racists who like to batt around stereotypes such as "lazy N", they also need to be seen to have a kernel of truth.

The paradigm for the prosperous Asian immigrant is to come over to the US get a job and rent a bed in a shack with 10 other immigrants, and then get another job. And live cheaper than dirt and save money for a few years and start a business. And only then start a family. And once one or more families members are on this track, bring in more family members into those businesses and help others start new businesses. And then when they have children, insure they get a quality education in science or business with advanced degrees.

Part of the reason of course that blacks have not done this historically is indeed because racism limited their opportunities, but there is little reason such a paradigm cannot be adopted today.

The second issue is the black community's failure to build up themselves economically by concentration of their own resources. And it is the Jewish community which best shows this paradigm. Every Jewish friend and acquaintance I have had over the years has always to my knowledge used Jewish insurance agents, Jewish lawyers, etc. So economically they build themselves up. This is partly a stereotype as well, but it is true from what I have seen. And again as with the Asian community, a high priority is placed on education.

Yet so many racial problems in black communities have stemmed from a perception by blacks that Jewish and Korean retail store owners are "preying" on the black coummunity and offerring little in return. But the real question is, why doesn't a black man or woman own that large pawn emporium down the street or the neighborhood grocery? And why isn't the closest TV repair shop owned by a black? And why doesn't the black coummunity then support such black businesses even if it means paying a little more?

The black community needs a moral crusade (doesn't even have to be religious based) to evict and condemn the teen sex/drug & violence/rap culture that is killing their community. And they need to adopt the successful paradigms of other successful minority communities who came to these shores long after them and have prospered while their community as a whole is mired in economic deprivation.

Now I know that what I have suggested, as have others, will be challenged by the dominant blame-it-all-on-racism political position assumed by most black leaders, partly becuase they will say and have said that the black minority in the US is in fact so large that such measures cannot be adopted. But they can in fact be adopted a block and a neighborhood at a time. And it is important to America that they succeed in these things if they are willing to take on the challenges.

Anyway, that's one white man's long opinion.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:12 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

This quote makes it clear what group he's talking about:

[ QUOTE ]
Half of all murders (and much of the crime) in the U.S. are caused by a particular race

[/ QUOTE ]
This quote makes it clear that he's not being remotely objective:

[ QUOTE ]
Even the elite of this race fail to excel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally,

[ QUOTE ]
Compare this with any other minority and the results are clear to anyone without a bias. Asians routinely outperform whites and are disproportionately represented at elite universities, despite being a minority and in spite of poverty and limited integration into society.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ignore for a moment that there are minorities that fair much worse in America than this "particular race".

Potentially, there is a lot to be learned by understanding why people of Asian decent do so much better than people a "particular race" (on average) in America. The idea that this is only/mostly to do with intellectual capacity of respective groups is "on the border of retardation" however.

Edit :
Actually, now that I look at this one more time, I'm starting to wonder if this guy really is talking about the "particular race" I thought he was. What ratio of murders and crime is perfomed by white people in the US? Of course, this still makes the "even their elites don't excel" utterly ridiculous.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

RE: Bluff. I should say that though what you said deals with many of the same issues as the original poster, I don't consider it remotely racist - and the reason for that is that you're addressing cultural issues. The original post is addressing issues of genetic inheritance relating to intelligence/work ethic etc - and that's just demonstrably false. Not only that but probably most importantly, the tone reflects your intention - the original post just reflects spite.

Nevertheless, I think much of what you describe is just poverty. The 'teen sex/drugs & violence' type culture is just one of poverty, it's exactly the same phenomena you find in the white underclass. And as far as what you describe for the black community: I think when you hear talk of the black community being too large to incorporate that kind of commercial nepotism - the reason isn't that the black community is too large logistically, it's that it's so large it doesn't have a common identity. And I don't think that's a bad thing, not having a common identity is indicative of a more complete integration, whites don't have a common identity either - in fact where whites exercise the ability to only shop at white stores, use white lawyers etc, we'd call that racism. I don't honestly think much needs done, it's truly unfortunate that we can't effect social change quickly, but it's an inescapable reality. There are more and more blacks entering the middle class, more blacks going to college, the first generation of black millionaires retiring. Simply I think the system is now in place, but it will take many many generations subsequent to the very recent history of racist segregation before blacks in poverty are not disproportionately represented. What percentage of whites in poverty enter the middle class every generation? Not that many.....
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

If I'd known I was going to be quoted in a new thread, I would have taken the time to make my point more eloquently and with proper references, lest its flaws be used a diversion by people with narrow minded agendas. My attitude may well be considered racist, but the facts I state and the issues that need to be faced are real, and very relevant to American society.

For the guys who doubt my "over 50% comment", read this:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

[ QUOTE ]

Homicide Type by Race, 1976-2002
Offenders
White Black Other
45.9% 52.1% 2.0%

[/ QUOTE ]

I will post SAT and intelligence scores when I get time (or someone else can). Suffice to say that those who claim that there isn't a huge difference are misinformed or straight out lying.

[ QUOTE ]
This quote makes it clear that he's not being remotely objective:

Quote:
Even the elite of this race fail to excel.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it makes it clear that particular comment is not objective. The point I was making is that even the elite of that race who attend university or are wealty don't excel in society. There are very, very few great CEOs, lawyers, writers, artists, politicians, scientists, nobel prize winners (lol), journalists, etc etc who are from that race. That's all I'm saying. Though they have made a notable contribution to bling bling gansta rap (girls in skimpy clothing and shiny man-jewellery, anyone?). I guess that could be considered art.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:11 AM
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Nobody was questioning the SAT or IQ scores. What people (like me) were questioning is that those differences could be accounted for by something inherently attached to race. There is every indication that there is no such connection <snip>. Put simply poor people score worse in SAT and IQ tests, always have and probably always will, for reasons too numerous and tangential to bother getting into in this thread.

I'd also suggest you consider the possibility that people were offended by your post because it was spiteful and derisive, not because of the position you were arguing.


Edit: Was wrong
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

Um, brain size differences between races?? There is a strong correlation between this and IQ. The differences were reported a while ago (again) in New Scientist and elsewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

In the meantime Wikipedia has an interesting and well referenced article for anyone not familiar with the topic. There is more going on here than cultural or historic differences. Anyone without a bias can see this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...s_among_races)
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Old 12-20-2005, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: This Ought To Get Some Replies

I'm familiar with that study actually, I'd forgotten about it. There has only been shown to be a tenuous link between brain size and IQ - but setting that aside, say for the sake of argument there's a strong correllation, that's still missing the point entirely.

Higher IQ's will propogate where having a high IQ is advantageous. If you look at the racial history of America that possibly applied less to blacks at some point, since starting a business, going to college etc was not an option. It doesn't now - so if you can establish a lower average IQ in blacks it means absolutely nothing except that it references a historical reproductive pattern - that gap will close where a higher IQ becomes reproductively attractive. And there are numerous studies to the effect that this gap has been closing for decades. That all makes IQ nothing inherent to race - stupid people have stupid kids in every race, as far as I'm aware.
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