to live or not to live (the lesser of two evils)--kind of long

[tdarko]

first of i would like to say this is not a sympathy post and there should be no replies of such. old people only do a few certain things, complain, vote, love their children/grandchildren and eventually pass away. my grandfather is about to pass (no later than friday, i don't know how they know this but that is what i was told) but he has lived a long life and i am grateful for the time i have had with him, so no worries. now that that is out of the way, on with the meat of the post.

my grandfather in june of 1986 was told that if he didn't change his lifestyle he wouldn't live for 5 more years. in 1995 the doctors told him he wouldn't live for two more years and every year since they said he has basically been a medical mystery since only a small percentage of his heart actually works. here is the deal, for the past couple of years he had been really going downhill (of course though, its inevitable) but to keep him ticking he takes about 50 pills a day (this post isn't supposed to spark up a debate about how doctors just try to keep people alive to make money etc.) and this is what has been keeping him running.

the problem is is that its a horrible way to live b/c he should actually be dead. i know this b/c the decision to take him of his medication and stop him from living that way was made on saturday and we are leaving to drive to louisiana tomorrow to be with him when he passes. one week it took. so obviously he would be dead without the drugs.

while on the drugs his body is deteriating and he falls all the time and is contantly breaking bones and now has dymensia and is basically being tortured. his life was hell and it was hard to watch. that is why the decision was made to take him off his medication so he didn't have to live that way anymore.

that is one side of the double-edged sword. the other side is you can always say you wouldn't want to live in torture and that if you weren't able to wipe your ass on your own or if wherever you sat down thats where you ended up for the day then you wouldn't want to live that way, but you don't know how you would feel until this situation arrives. what if there are grandchildren he wants to see married or what if he is just scared or what if he doesn't want to leave his wife of 68 years? we made the decision for him, he has no say in this.

so the question is do you sit and watch a person that you love suffer till their death or do you pull the plug on them? i am asking (sorry if it has been asked before) b/c i honestly don't know how to feel in this situation and either way feels [censored] up.

[jba]

damn this is terrible. Sorry to hear this man, I have no idea what to tell you in this situation. It is a terrible way to live, but just spend as much time with him and make it as easy as possible for him and the rest of his family.

my grandfather was incredibly lucky: he got the 6 months to live report from the doc, immediately handed over his restaraunt biz to a couple of his kids, and started travelling all over the country with his wife.

a few months later he died of a car accident.

[Blarg]

Honestly I'm for pulling the plug. I think it's often merely selfishness disguised as caring for others(what if he LIKES being a vegetable?) that makes people prolong the misery of their family when their quality of life is minimal or even inarguably extremely negative. Dying is often sought by the old and infirm because life is not a good in itself, but a qualified good. If you've had your time on earth and extra days aren't adding anything to the equation, just hanging around in misery waiting for the end adds absolutely zero to your life's experience and may even degrade it to an extreme. Some people go through a lot of suffering and loneliness before they are finally allowed to die.

I'd wish as clean and timely a death on anyone as I'd wish on myself. I wouldn't want to live on being a burden and expense to my family while I was getting nothing out of life but a daily round of misery. All that "rage before the dying of the light" strikes me as crap.

I'm sure there are people who feel otherwise, but I feel the person who best knows when it's time to go is the ill person. And if he has dementia, his relatives and friends would or should know his wishes were he healthy enough to state them. This is a good reason for making a living will, so you can be eased out of your suffering instead of having ir multiply as the days pile up.

I'd hate to live life that way, or subject my family to having to see my misery and degradation and dragging them through it with me.

I'm not all that much in favor of the idea of pulling the plug the way we do now either. A person should be able to take a few pills and painlessly slip away in an hour or two.

[samjjones]

My wife's family pulled the plug on my mother-in-law in July after only a week of conditions like that. I can't imagine allowing the person to live much longer than that (assuming that the person didn't leave explicit instructions to be kept alive at all costs), nevermind 5 years or whatever.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd hate to live life that way, or subject my family to having to see my misery and degradation and dragging them through it with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blarg - I think this is what makes Tdarko's post interesting - you believe you wouldn't want to live with this way, but when confronted with death, is it really so easy to say this?

Tdarko - Wow, as others have noted I'm sorry to hear about this situation. It's a really, really tough call. Of course ideally it should be up to the person whose life is at stake. Barring that possibilty - from a utilitarian Peter Singer type perspective, I think pulling the plug makes the most sense (drain on much needed healthcare resources etc).

From a personal standpoint - only if I were convinced that my loved one could no longer, at all, enjoy or get something out of life, would I feel comfortable pulling the plug. Yes, I realize this is hypocritical...

Conflicted,
-Al

[tdarko]

my thoughts are along the lines of yours, in my post i figured i would try to state both sides fairly.

i hate seeing him suffer and i always thought the way he lived was cruel in some way. what made me think in another direction was my mother, she basically just said its easy to say you would rather die when you aren't the one facing death and leaving a women you have sat next to for over 6 decades. she made a point that different people react differently to death and you can never just say, "if i am ever like that just pull the plug on me." i thought it was interesting though i don't necessarily agree.

its one of those tough situations b/c you don't want someone to die but you don't want someone to suffer. i choose death (i guess) since life for the particular person has been fullfilling.

[whiskeytown]

When my Grandpa died, he dragged on for a day or two after his stroke because he had a pacemaker that kept the heart beating. All my dad wanted to do was open a microwave near that son of a bitching pacemaker and let him die with dignity. I don't think the doctor's would do it.

The only people who want to cling onto life till the bitter end are those who lived so terribly they're afraid there may be a God waiting to judge them.

Anyone who's even halfway decent generally accepts that there's a point in their life where they may not want to be prolonged or sustained artifically. They want to, for lack of a better word, find rest and see if there's any great reward to come like being reunited with loved ones.

Don't feel bad, dude. Your Grandpa sounded like a good guy. I'm sure if he wasn't in this condition, he'd tell you not to feel down about pulling the plug. I suspect he's ready for some peace.

pax
RB

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
The only people who want to cling onto life till the bitter end are those who lived so terribly they're afraid there may be a God waiting to judge them.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who's even halfway decent generally accepts that there's a point in their life where they may not want to be prolonged or sustained artifically. They want to, for lack of a better word, find rest and see if there's any great reward to come like being reunited with loved ones.


[/ QUOTE ]
good points and probably true.

[astroglide]

this is completely wrong. most people are terrified of dying and being 'halfway decent' (or even 'really decent') doesn't help. it's natural.

i'm sure most people would like to say "i just want it to end if that happens", but i've seen plenty of people cling to nothing when the [censored] really hit the fan.

[Aloysius]

Astroglide - I agree. I think it's easy to postulate what one would do in these circumstances, but when actually confronted with death... very different story I'd imagine.

Afraid To Die,
-Al