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#21
11-03-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
[ QUOTE ]
With respect to being "cavalier" with money you are correct, however, the act of repeatedly disrepecting it through poor play does not provide one with "special insight". If I go to the 1cent/2cent tables and blow through 40 buy-ins I don't believe that will not give me some type of epiphany and license to pontificate, but if it will give me a more than "chalkboard' understanding of the greatness of LAG play which I am presently lacking, I'll go do it immediately. [/ QUOTE ] Two nights ago, in a live NLHE game, an opponent called my all-in (worth $400 since I covered him) into a $700 pot on the river, JT876 board with three to a flush, with Jacks up. How did I get him to pay me off with two pair when a flush, one-card straight, or set was staring him right in the face, as obvious as could be? Because he'd seen me make two suckouts in situations where EV would dictate that I lose money, and show multiple bluffs, both successful and losing. Granted, one of my suckouts was so bad that the advertising value did not merit it, but this kind of situation--getting paid off by virtue of advertising--happens *all the time* for me. It's naive to think my opponents are always "just bad". So your suggestion of playing ultra-LAG at some cheap tables is IMO not a bad one. You will probably find it fun, and illuminationg. BTW, DN himself played like this from time to time during his poker development. Once a month or so he raised every two cards he was dealt PF in a limit HE game, and then tried to play good poker postflop. He won big every time. So if you think it's silly to experiment with uncomfortable styles, just consult your poker idol's history and you may reconsider. 
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#23
11-03-2005, 01:35 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
You want me to reply....you NEED me to reply!!
1) Attempting to correct vocabulary when someone disagrees with you IS whining. 2) "Attenuated" in this context means thin or barely connected reasoning. That is its common usage by the way, at least in legal circles. 3) Inaccurately clipping a line about how I intend to play my highest limits tables over the next month does not fairly generalize my play, and I think no one would look at my often posted numbers 25 VPIP 1.8 PF Aggression and say I am a nut peddler. Nor did I say I was passing up +EV drawing situations, just playing them slower at the higher limits for awhile. It is total hubris to presume that others don't understand what you do-- and a HUGE sign of immaturity. Twenty Seven is precisely young enough to lack that particular wisdom. 4) On semi-bluffs, and stone cold bluffs, I suppose you are right. But I think the crux of this is the fact that the "semi" part of the bluff was done with very small pot-equity. I think I will run it on 2 dimes to have a look at how small his equity was. 5) Johnny Cochran, Chewbacca and South Park, I concede whatever point you were trying to make with this. Clearly it is FAR easier for you to spot "advertising" plays at the $2000/$4000 level from a hand history than Negreanu with the benefit of actually playing in the game. 6) I actually love Barry (in a non-homosexual way-- so no Estrada pics please). I completely agree that real devastation is winning with crap, but that is begging the question, for it assumes that Barry had a reasonable expectation of winning at showdown at the time he made his re-raise, and in my view he did not, so I don't think the original re-raise was made for the purpose of showing down a crappy winner and altering the tables perception of him. 7) I don't see any logical reason whatsoever for Negreanu to expose a "raw EV" mistake by Greenstein. Clearly he was motivated by something other than pure poker x's and o's (to mix metaphors). Moreover, educating Barry about his weaknesses and poor play is clearly a -EV play by Negreanu as a stand alone proposition. So, I think it was a combination of dislike, a desire to feel superior (with which you should be familiar-- as it seems to be the motivation for most of your posts) a little bit of tilt, and or a desire to irritate Barry into playing outside his game when they play again.
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#24
11-03-2005, 01:55 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
[ QUOTE ]
I actually love Barry. [/ QUOTE ] 
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#25
11-03-2005, 01:56 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
You are entering the Ribbo zone of self-deception if you don't see the difference between DN's thoughtful experimenting with raising every 2 card combination and then playing well afterwords and your blowing through 40 buyins and $1000 as an excercise in devaluing money and juvenile satifaction of your own superiority complex at the expense of people who give a [censored]. I'll grant you the entertainment value in it, but NOT any insight or wisdom that you claim flows from it.
It seems lost on you that I could perfectly well understand the purpose and value of advertising-- and do it myself from time to time, but STILL not think that was the purpose behind Barry's play. By the way, when I want to play UltraLAG, I do it at $5 NLHE tournaments with a friend that plays this level seriously (he's that cheap). And I do everything humanly possible to put people on tilt. Usually I finish in the money, and I think it both helps AND hurts my play for when it really counts.
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#26
11-03-2005, 01:59 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
Damn you Wintermute! You have too many homosexual pictures for me to specify all of them. Frankly a picture of Barry himself superimposed over Eric Estrada's body would be the shizzle. Yank yourself away from terrorizing the kiddie NL tables and do it right!
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#27
11-03-2005, 02:06 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
[ QUOTE ]
You are entering the Ribbo zone of self-deception if you don't see the difference between DN's thoughtful experimenting with raising every 2 card combination and then playing well afterwords and your blowing through 40 buyins and $1000 as an excercise in devaluing money and juvenile satifaction of your own superiority complex at the expense of people who give a [censored]. I'll grant you the entertainment value in it, but NOT any insight or wisdom that you claim flows from it. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] WTF? At whose "expense" did I blow off a grand in the $25 NLHE game? Surely nobody but myself, no? Please explain to me how that incident hurt anyone who "gives a censored". And I didn't claim to gain any insight from it--there was nothing gained at all, except sheer entertainment (and reinforcement of my superiority complex, evidently... speaking of which, for the record I ended up ahead during that session since I was multitabling w/ 2k PLO8). Simmer down, old man.
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#28
11-03-2005, 02:11 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
My best approximation of the hands in two dimes says:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 528 enumerated boards containing 6s Tc Qh cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV 9s Jc Ah 6h 152 214 309 5 0 0 0 0.351 Ad 9d 2d Th 13 32 491 5 115 0 0 0.156 Js 7c Jd 3h 6 20 508 0 61 40 0 0.082 Qs 9c 8c Td 176 257 269 2 0 0 0 0.411 Giving Barry a whopping .082 Pot Equity at the time of his re-raise.
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#29
11-03-2005, 02:15 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
lol-- at the expense of their dignity.
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#30
11-03-2005, 02:23 PM
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Re: Daniel Negreanu says O8 is Barry Greenstein\'s worst game
I was thinking more of the matchup once he gets others to fold:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6s Tc Qh cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Js 7c Jd 3h 41 41 779 0 144 0 0 0.129 Qs 9c 8c Td 650 779 41 0 0 0 0 0.871 He has 13% equity now! Also, range of hands, etc.
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