JTs Flops Top Pair, Flop is Donked and PFR Still to Act

TheHammer24 · #1 10-23-2005, 03:40 AM

Whoa...long Subject

Anway, PFR is average something like 22/7/1.5
Villian here is 16/10/3.5 WTSD is 35% over 1100 hands

I raise the flop because I want the button and figure to have pfr beat. My hand is strong enough that I think folding is wrong, but calling really doesn't protect my hand. On the turn I checked, because I was uncertain of my hand's strength and didn't know how to handle a c/r from a very aggressive villian.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Hero raises, CO folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

bigalt · #2 10-23-2005, 03:49 AM

granted a check-raise on the turn would suck, but if BB had two spades he'd totally bet the flop out, trapping the two of you between and hopfully getting a raise from CO. It would also suck to give him that free card.

Borodog · #3 10-23-2005, 03:55 AM

The fact that you just called the 3-bet makes it less likely that you will bet the turn (and in fact you didn't). This is turn makes it less likely for a turn c/r to succeed. Bettor should know this and lead the turn with a real hand. This makes me think spades. On the other hand, bettor seems so aggro that he may continue to bet a big flush draw on the turn. So it may indeed be a failed c/r. I.e. it's hard to say.

Given the fact that he's so aggro, I'm going to have to say I must bet this turn, call a raise, and call a river bet.

I hope he didn't show KQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or the like.

#4 10-23-2005, 04:03 AM

I think I would have played it the same way. I don't know if it's the best line or not...

Did he at least flop two pair?

clownshoes · #5 10-23-2005, 05:24 AM

Bet turn.

Klak · #6 10-23-2005, 03:22 PM

you have position. use it. bet the turn.

W. Deranged · #7 10-23-2005, 05:20 PM

Checking the turn behind here is a big mistake.

Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised. If villain is good enough to check-raise bluff a draw here, and you haven't recognized that he's that tricky, then he probably deserves to win this hand.

There is no play in poker which I think is lamer than players raising and reraising the flop out of positions with draws solely for the purpose of trying to dupe their opponents into giving a free card on the turn. (If they are doing it with an equity edge, that's fine). Don't fall victim to this lamest of poker gambits.

Borodog · #8 10-23-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even against an AF of 3.5?

TheHammer24 · #9 10-23-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Checking the turn behind here is a big mistake.

Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised. If villain is good enough to check-raise bluff a draw here, and you haven't recognized that he's that tricky, then he probably deserves to win this hand.

There is no play in poker which I think is lamer than players raising and reraising the flop out of positions with draws solely for the purpose of trying to dupe their opponents into giving a free card on the turn. (If they are doing it with an equity edge, that's fine). Don't fall victim to this lamest of poker gambits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that if I am c/r'ed I have to fold, and agree this was the correct line.

W. Deranged · #10 10-23-2005, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. You likely have very few outs when behind here and you are giving up little by folding if you get check-raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even against an AF of 3.5?

[/ QUOTE ]

A 16/10/3.5 is probably and at least somewhat competent TAG. A 3.5 agg. factor is often reflective of the fact that this opponent folds a fair amount. Given their pre-flop numbers, it is not suggestive of totally overwhelming, push-you-out-of-the-pot-no-matter-the-cost aggression.

Needless to say, it is not high enough for me to commit to putting two more big bets into the pot to see a showdown were I to be check-raised on the turn.

Again, I'll reiterate that: If your opponent is check-raising this turn on a draw, then you may just have to allow yourself to be outplayed this one hand. Mike McDermott's four-bet coup against Johnny Chan notwithstanding, getting outplayed (or outplaying someone) in one hand is not the end of the world. If you get check-raised on this turn, statistically speaking you are not going to have enough equity on average to continue and the correct play is to fold.

[Another important thing to note is that the turn card is not scary. Your opponent would have to be extremely ambitious to think that a check-raise is going to get you to fold a pair of Js or better given a blank turn card. So, in order to check-raise with a bluff he'd either have to have a severe case of FPS or think he has a very good read on you. These are both longshots until proven otherwise.]