Open limping the button w/K9o? Still trying to draw a bright line...

[MisterKing]

SB is 65/24/2, BB is 54/24/1... I'm still shifting from full ring to 6max, and am struggling with exactly how to define steal raise situations vs. situations where (per HEPFAP) I'm best off open calling on the button. The way I see it, I need to raise smaller pairs and such, but am fine open calling with hands like Q9o, K9o, A5o, T9s, etc. I've got positional advantage, and can use the small pot to more easily manipulate odds later in the hand, esp. vs opponents prone to call down with almost nothing.

Two quick examples:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.


Villains here are tighter than above

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

[kahntrutahn]

I raise it every time... I think your equity is 42% v two random hands...

[DCWGaming]

In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[MisterKing]

Ok, fair enough for K9. I should've taken that hand out of the post title (its too late to edit now), since really my question is more general in nature. In other words, I see horrible postflop play quite a bit from these guys at 3/6, but feel that raising and folding to a donkbet on the flop when we whiff, or calling that bet and folding the turn UI is, in at least some cases, not best. I am REALLY tempted to start open limping a decent # of hands on the button given what I've seen. This is not to say I don't plan on raising the same hands I'm already raising (any pair, any ace most of the time, JTo+, K9s+, etc etc.

Really, I need to go over King Yao's starters and do a better job of following them, but apart from that general guide I am really interested in trying to find some value vs postflop tards via marginal open limps. The thought process I have in mind is similar to the "take off the training wheels" post Ed Miller had up a while back. Any input is definitely appreciated.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but we're taking about a very specific situation here: folded to you on the button with a marginal hand. See "When the blinds are loose" in HEPFAP (Pg. 197) to see what I'm talking about. Sklansky specifically advocates open calling in some spots, and I'm trying to extrapolate his ideas into the 3/6 and 5/10 short games on Party, which play at least somewhat differently than what Sklansky had in mind when he wrote his book.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, open calling is a bad idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but what are your reasons?

There are situations where I would open call on the button, specifically if I have two real loose passive players in the blinds that love to see flops and turns. There is no reason in bloating the pot with a hand like 89s or 9Ts, but against such bad players, I want to see a flop with these types of hands and I have little to no steal equity. If these guys are perpetual flop peelers, raising makes playing a marginal hand a lot harder because you can't always pound the flop and turn with marginal hands.

[kahntrutahn]

Ok OK... in certain situations, I have been "experimenting" with open-limping with A6-A2o and 44-22...

[wackjob]

I am raising K9o 90% or more of the time from the CO when folded to me. I am raising K9 off on the button every time. With weak players who play too many hands and call too much, I never want to give their weak hands any freebies. If I'm limping K9 off I am giving too many options for hands like J7 off to limp from the SB and beat me.

I also agree that limping in for the most part is a bad play, especially so in SH play. One of the best things that raising does is take away peoples "correct" odds to call. When they do call and they don't have the odds, they end up giving you more money. We all(or most) should know these things. I think most decent, studied players know these things(either by intuition or books).

The obvious other big reason to raise with a hand like K9o is the chance to steal w/o seeing a flop. I'd much rather steal every time than ever see a flop with K9o.

I hope you have read The Theory of Poker, and if not you should, and if not recently, you should re-read it. There is a lot of attention paid to raising &amp; the reasons you should raise. For me, limping in w/o the intention of a c/r pre-flop, is about a 2% of the time play, mostly in the SB with hands I want to see the flop for cheaply.

[twankerr]

While open-limping can be debated, there is little reason to open limp with K9o. I don't care if they tell me they are calling before the flop, you play poker well postflop and you are up against two opponents who are calling with two cards (either red or black) and play poorly postflop a large amount of the time.

[sthief09]

this is probably an ok spot to do this. I'd be more apt to do it with QJ or QT where I have less showdown value though. if you raise it's going to be a pretty big pot 3 ways.