KQo in the SB... - Page 2

Wayfare · #11 07-21-2005, 10:01 PM

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A flush draw, a bluff, KJ, I don't know. Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

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Didn't harrington say that action that makes no sense is usually a bluff?

pokernicus · #12 07-21-2005, 10:29 PM

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my problem here, is that the raise came out of nowhere on a card that meant nothing. What does this usually indicate? That's the area I'm having problems with [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Here's one interpretation. Perhaps UTG hit the flop pretty hard -- e.g., two pair or a set. I would guess that his range of holdings include: KK, TT, 33, KT, or K3. KK seems unlikely since there was no raise pre-flop. K3 also seems a little loose for a player UTG, so is unlikely IMO. Given the way the remainder of the hand played out, I would also be inclined to rule out TT as you didn't get raised on the river. Therefore, the two most likely holdings seem to be 33 or KT.

Since you led on the flop, and since UTG was second to act, he tried to be cute and smooth call (hoping to slow play). He suspects that you caught some piece of the flop as it would be pretty unlikely for you to bluff into four other people. Also, the board contains some high cards, so it's more likely to have hit someone.

However, since two people called after UTG, he probably got nervous about draws and decided to raise the turn to protect his hand. (Especially since there may now be either a heart draw or a diamond draw, as well as a straight draw).

The min raise is interesting here. If MP1 and MP2 are on straight or flush draws, they are not getting the right pot odds to call. However, the implied odds are not too far off since it may be hard for UTG to lay down a set (if that's what he has).

On the other hand, if UTG has a set or top two pair, then even though you're getting 5:1, you're still not getting the right price to call.

In general, I would either fold this on the turn raise or check the river and fold to a large bet. However, this all depends, of course, on how you read your opponent. I've been in similar situations to these where I've called down against a weak maniac and been correct about doing so.

Malachii · #13 07-21-2005, 10:32 PM

In my experience, anytime you get smooth called on the flop and raised on the turn, you're usually up against a set and occasionally two pair. I don't Villain bluffing with two callers behind him, and I don't Villain waiting until the turn to get aggressive with a flush draw. I agree that the immediate odds are very juicy here after the minraise, but you have to remember that you have to get through another round of betting, so your effective odds aren't very good at all.

All this adds up to a fold in my opinion.

pokernicus · #14 07-21-2005, 10:37 PM

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Didn't harrington say that action that makes no sense is usually a bluff?

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In this case, however, the actions to make sense for many hands. Maybe he initially intended to slowplay, and didn't expect that MP1 and MP3 would call. On the turn he raised to protect. (See my other post...)

If this was a bluff, it's a bad play for two reasons:
1) a min-raise is often not enough to get rid of the initial raiser
2) there are three others in the pot

So, I would think it's unlikely for this to be a bluff. Of course, at these limits, I'm sure we've all seen a lot of very unlikely play!

jonnyUCB · #15 07-21-2005, 10:42 PM

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Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

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especially when you can outdraw two pair. To the OP, I usually ch/fold this river unless you know villian to bet worse hands on the river.

BobboFitos · #16 07-21-2005, 10:46 PM

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Point is you're not laying down TPGK for a small turn minraise on a double suited board.

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especially when you can outdraw two pair. To the OP, I usually ch/fold this river unless you know villian to bet worse hands on the river.

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i think villain has kq or kj or bad king himself often here

i think it was played fine.

important note, though... someone said you cant fold with such good odds and the board texture yadda yadda, but if your plan is to call and then block bet, the turn doesn't cost you 9, it costs you 9 + block bet. something to consider.

that said, it's played well.

TheWorstPlayer · #17 07-21-2005, 11:14 PM

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No reads here... nobody seems to be doing anything wild

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter

MP2 ($99)
MP3 ($111)
CO ($136.05)
Button ($91.50)
Hero ($123.60)
BB ($100)
UTG ($75.25)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($95.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, UTG calls $3, MP1 calls $3, MP3 calls $3.

Turn: ($17) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG raises to $18, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $9.

River: ($53) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $21, UTG calls $21.

Final Pot: $95

his turn min-raise was a little odd to me. I didn't know what to make of it since that card was harmless. Once the 5 pairs on the river, I figure my Q wins the pot for me.

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I think you played it perfectly. I don't know why you would fold to a turn min raise.

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pokernicus · #18 07-22-2005, 04:57 PM

Post the results?

skoal2k4 · #19 07-22-2005, 10:19 PM

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Post the results?

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UTG shows T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

pokernicus · #20 07-26-2005, 09:21 PM

Thanks for posting that! A nice hand for discussion. I had included TT in my range of holdings up until the river play - It's surprising that he didn't raise for value. The only hands that beat him are KK or 55. KK is not likely since you didn't raise pre-flop. 55 is also unlikely as you bet into four callers on a flop with two overcards (especially a K and a T -- as people tend to play high cards, and the T fits nicely with many holdings for straight possibilities).