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#1
05-24-2005, 05:06 PM
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Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
Article by Jacob Perez at parttimepoker.com
Here's an excerpt... "Here’s an opinion I have that many others do not share, although I’ve found a few that do ... raising AA from the blinds [or kk, qq, ak etc] is a bad idea - especially from the BB. Here's the situation: you're on the bb with aces and five players come in behind you. The sb calls. I argue that you should just check..." Discuss please 
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#3
05-24-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
Well this article explains why he is writing for parttime poker and not fulltime poker. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
This is a total joke imo. When people play hands like T6o, you have to get the money in preflop since that hand doesn't hit a lot of flops. If they miss, you will not get anything from them postflop. Punish them preflop for their super loose play. You also have to consider that they will chase with hands that really don't warrent it (like backdoor draws and such). Build a pot. Brad
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#6
05-24-2005, 05:17 PM
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Re: Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
His thinking is flawed:
On point one, he is correct that you are <50% to win the hand with 5 people in. However, you stand to make more money, even though you win less often. (And it's not even close, do you see blah blah blah.) I would rather go up against 10 people (with a pot equity of ~30%) than heads up (with a pot equity of 80%), because the family pots are going to be so much larger you make more money off of them, even with the reduced share. The second point is a little more interesting -- but it seems like he has a problem protecting hands in large pots (large enough so that a bet will not protect your hand). It also goes back to the first point I made -- the only reason calling on the flop and turn is correct is because they made a bigger mistake calling pre-flop. -K
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#7
05-24-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
ok now I read the article.
[ QUOTE ] 1) With 5 or more players in the hand, your aces are no longer a favorite to win the hand. To be more precise, you are no longer a majority favorite - you will lose this hand more than you will win it. You are, however, still a plurality favorite - you will win this hand more times than any other single player. You want your money in with majority favorites as often as possible. Making moves with plurality favorites is a high-variance strategy and really only pays off if you are a much stronger player than your opponents. [/ QUOTE ] the distinction between majority favorite and plurality favorite is pretty arbitrary IMO. putting money in with majority favorites is a great idea, but you will still get +EV from both. the variance you "save" is not worth the EV you lose. that's why we have bankrolls. which is not to say you must push every single equity edge (think "two overpair hands") but not winning the pot 50% of the time is a horrible distinction. a better argument would have been his winning frequency COMPARED TO HIS OPPONENTS. this might justify not raising a hand like AJo, that while it has a likely edge, may not be enough that you can't recoup it postflop by minimising losses on bad flops and/or concealing your hand on a good one. [ QUOTE ] 2) Your raise can make bad players unwittingly play good. Sklansky has written about this in his TH for advanced players. Basically, your raise makes the pot bigger, giving correct odds to long shot hands. [/ QUOTE ] it makes them chase postflop, sometimes correctly, but you still get value on those bets when you have the best hand. what it also does is magnify their terrible preflop error, and that makes you money too. in fact, it doubles the amount they have to recoup postflop to make their preflop call profitable. I always hear "bt then gutshots get the proper price to chase!". well, he doesn't have a gutshot yet, sometimes when he does he'll be drawing slim to our set/2 pair, and often times he'll miss and fold correctly when he would have donated to you preflop. the flip side is that sometimes we lose an extra bet when we pay off on the river. think we make money or lose money raising them preflop and letting him chase it postflop? why are we so scared of gutshots? once I started getting money in with significant favorites and not worrying about the myriad of ways I could lose, I started beating limit games that said, he seems to realize that it's +EV to raise them, so I don't know why he's scared of a little variance
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#9
05-24-2005, 05:33 PM
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Re: Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
[ QUOTE ]
Example: 5-10 hold 'em. 5 players call, including the sb; you are on bb with AA. You check. There is now $30 in the pot. The flop comes K J 3. You bet and two players call; player A with KQ and player B with Q9. At this point both callers are making a mistake [the KQ an understandable one]; the two pair draw and the gut shot draw [our q9 pal is fishing for a 10] both need roughly 11-1 odds to make their calls correct. When you bet, that makes $35 in the pot, so player A is calling $5 to win $35, or 7-1. But if you raise pre-flop, there is now $60 in the pot, $65 with your bet, and the draws are getting close to the correct odds to call. They would call either way, but one way they're very wrong to call, another way, they're pretty correct. But they didn't do anything different - only you did. Think about that, captain pants [/ QUOTE ] I've thought about this a few times before, and I keep coming to the same conclusion - this is ridiculous. Because I've heard this argument so many times though, I feel I must be missing something. Anyways, here are my thoughts on it. Does it really make a difference to us whether they are calling correctly or incorrectly? Shouldn't we prefer that they call correctly, and there is more money in the pot? If they are going to call anyways, we are either going to win the pot or lose it, regardless of how much money is in it. We can check preflop, and make a poor player incorrectly call with his gutshot (or a better player will fold, and we take down a very small pot). Or we can raise preflop, and build a pot big enough for him to call correctly. This does not change the frequency that his card will hit. If he is going to call anyways, we are going to win a big pot or a small pot (provided his draw misses). Which is preferable? This is totally ignoring the other people in the hand that will bloat the pot by putting in 2SB instead of 1 PF, and have to give it up on the flop because it misses them (or make even worse calls because the pot is big and they want it). I feel I have to be missing something important, because this just seems too simple for so many people to be making the argument of not allowing others to draw correctly.
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#10
05-24-2005, 05:33 PM
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Re: Should You Raise With Big Hands From the Blinds in Limit Poker?
[ QUOTE ]
Article by Jacob Perez at parttimepoker.com Here's an excerpt... "Here’s an opinion I have that many others do not share, although I’ve found a few that do ... raising AA from the blinds [or kk, qq, ak etc] is a bad idea - especially from the BB. Here's the situation: you're on the bb with aces and five players come in behind you. The sb calls. I argue that you should just check..." Discuss please [/ QUOTE ] Mike Caro has some thoughts on this as well. I tried to find his article but couldn't. At any rate he talks about being out of position, and the fact you are already in for one bet. What he doesn't address is all the cheese that shows up and the fact that with proper hand selection, your giving up to much by not raising. Premium hands come to infrequently not to be raising them. It's a bad habit you don't want to talk yourself into doing. Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
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