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| View Poll Results: What will happen to him? | |||
| Puke on the table |
   
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22 | 16.54% |
| Puke on a player |
  
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20 | 15.04% |
| Bang an ugly chick |
  
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43 | 32.33% |
| Bang a hot chick |
  
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9 | 6.77% |
| Bang a dude |
  
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39 | 29.32% |
| Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#21
02-02-2005, 04:15 PM
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TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
Read this thread: 5 things LL player should 'unlearn' by Clarkmeister
This hyper-aggression that I've been seeing in here over the last day is bothersome. Chill out people w/your draws. Draws are what they are draws, stop throwing money away. Go Pats! Joe Tall 
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#22
02-02-2005, 04:18 PM
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Re: Flush draw on flop
[ QUOTE ]
Where do you get these numbers from? Very interesting info there. [/ QUOTE ] http://www.twodimes.net/poker/ Or you can google "Poker Stove" or "Poker Calculator 1.1.4.1" and download either of those.
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#23
02-02-2005, 04:18 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
[ QUOTE ]
Read this thread: 5 things LL player should 'unlearn' by Clarkmeister This hyper-aggression that I've been seeing in here over the last day is bothersome. Chill out people w/your draws. Draws are what they are draws, stop throwing money away. Go Pats! Joe Tall [/ QUOTE ] Hmmm, I think a raise and a call here is pretty close. At these levels the free card play works often enough. Even Ed somewhat disagreed with Clarkmeister's first point about the free card play.
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#24
02-02-2005, 04:22 PM
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Re: Flush draw on flop
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I thought others would call behind as it was a loose passive table. [/ QUOTE ] This is the reason you try for the free card. [/ QUOTE ] Droolie, If the table is really passive, how often will they bet the turn? How often are they betting made hands vs. drawing hands? If they will bet the turn and the river the majority of the time, your relative position to the bettor (having EP trapped) leaves you in a great place to extract bets later in the hand. This needs to be considered in an analysis of a hand where you aren't gaining equity if anyone folds to your raise on the flop. This isn't nearly as easy of a raise as everyone is making it out to be. [/ QUOTE ] Are you leaning towards a call here? Situations come up like this all the time and I always play them the same way versus passive opponents. You're right that calling isn't that bad but I still think raising is better against passive opponents and it's something I'll do every time, which for me is an easy raise. In a three way pot I expect the BB to lead the turn a high % of the time if we just call the flop. The pot is small and if we have to face 2 cold on the turn we probably don't have the odds to see the river. When we raise the flop we disguise the flush draw nicely and our expectation goes up when we hit and one of the villians improves or has a set or something. This I believe winds up being a wash when we might have gotten more bets by waking up on the turn or river when we make our flush. We also garauntee ourselves odds to see this through to the river. I'm not terribly concerned with slight edges or slight disadvantages in equity as this is not a flop pump but a free card play. The fact that's it's close to even is what is important. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not "leaning towards" a call. I'm calling. The spectre of getting 3-bet here (which happens much more often as you move up) makes this a much easier call. If there were more callers, or you had overcards, or had some semblance of winning the pot UI, a raise might be fine -- it's situational. But with 2 total callers on a board that is well connected I don't like raising here against the majority of opponents. Listen to Joe Tall on this one fo' sho. What makes this an even easier call is the likelihood that if you don't raise, you'll get bet into on the turn/river when you do hit your flush, and EP is nicely trapped for those occasions.
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#25
02-02-2005, 04:25 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
Hmmm, I think a raise and a call here is pretty close. At these levels the free card play works often enough. Even Ed somewhat disagreed with Clarkmeister's first point about the free card play.
Had the flop been 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I'd agree that it's close. But the flop contains 2-broadways and you'll be 3-bet here often enough by the lead-flop better, destroying your equity. Especially if the inbetween player folds. You are also ignoring the times you make your draw on a later street and get to charge an extra big bet. It's a clear call. Ed would agree. Go Pats! Joe Tall
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#26
02-02-2005, 04:27 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I think a raise and a call here is pretty close. At these levels the free card play works often enough. Even Ed somewhat disagreed with Clarkmeister's first point about the free card play. Had the flop been 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I'd agree that it's close. But the flop contains 2-broadways and you'll be 3-bet here often enough by the lead-flop better, destroying your equity. Especially if the inbetween player folds. You are also ignoring the times you make your draw on a later street and get to charge an extra big bet. It's a clear call. Ed would agree. Go Pats! Joe Tall [/ QUOTE ] I'll take your and Entity's word for it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#27
02-02-2005, 04:29 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Read this thread: 5 things LL player should 'unlearn' by Clarkmeister This hyper-aggression that I've been seeing in here over the last day is bothersome. Chill out people w/your draws. Draws are what they are draws, stop throwing money away. Go Pats! Joe Tall [/ QUOTE ] Hmmm, I think a raise and a call here is pretty close. At these levels the free card play works often enough. Even Ed somewhat disagreed with Clarkmeister's first point about the free card play. [/ QUOTE ] Microer's need to change their mindset when it comes to draws. Call on the draw, raise with the flush. There is no value when you raise a bettor and a caller on a draw. Your equity isn't 35%. It is more like 32%. -EV Brad
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#28
02-02-2005, 04:30 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
Guys,
An important thing to remember is that sometimes, you'll get a free turn card anyway, when he's betting KT or whatnot. When you get the "free" turn card, it's costing you .5SB. Against passive opponents who fear the worst, this can kill your action when a flush draw hits on the turn/river, since raising the flop and checking the turn is a sign of a flush draw even to the most passive/poor opponents. So you get 2SB on the flop, 0BB on the turn, and maybe 1BB on the river. Rob
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#30
02-02-2005, 04:32 PM
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Re: TO EVERYONE WHO SAID RAISE....
From Clarkmeister's first point "...more often you get 3-bet..."
This is simply untrue when put in the context of 2005 lo limit games such as found on Party. Furthermore the OP specifies this was a loose passive table, so by definition it is unlikely you will be 3-bet. It is not crazy to raise here. It's close either way.
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