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Old 12-23-2005, 08:27 AM
Python49 Python49 is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 401
Default My friend and I are having a disagreement, comments?

He plays a style that I disagree with completely and told him that it's not the optimal way to play. I'd just like to get opinions on some of the AIM convo and hands that he sent me and wanted to see what others thought. Here are some exerpts and hands from the convo.

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: tripower1 ( $152.34 )
Seat 2: Dead_Kat ( $126.95 )
Seat 3: pokern1nja ( $109.34 )
Seat 4: makahabeach ( $96.70 )
Seat 5: Friend ( $69.40 )
Seat 6: KumaSatra ( $82.05 )
tripower1 posts small blind [$0.50].
pokern1nja posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Friend [ Qc Qs ]
makahabeach folds.
Friend raises [$4].
KumaSatra folds.
tripower1 raises [$7.50].
pokern1nja folds.
Friend calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Jc, Jd ]
tripower1 checks.
Friend bets [$5].
tripower1 calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
tripower1 checks.
Friend checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Ah ]
tripower1 checks.
Friend checks.
tripower1 shows [ 9h, Ac ] a full house, Jacks full of aces.
Friend doesn't show [ Qc, Qs ] a full house, Jacks full of queens.
tripower1 wins $25.65 from the main pot with a full house, Jacks full of aces.

I waited to hear his explanation and thought process for this hand before commenting.

Him (5:25:19 AM): now i'll explain to u why i played it like that
Him (5:25:30 AM): that guy was a complete moron
Him (5:25:51 AM): i KNOW i had him beat on the flop
Me (5:26:09 AM): if u know u have the best hand u have to get money in while u do
Him (5:26:10 AM): once with 88
Him (5:26:15 AM): few other times with just A x
Him (5:26:22 AM): he's totally wreckless and won't fold
Me (5:26:30 AM): so then why are u betting just $5
Me (5:26:32 AM): on the flop
Him (5:26:41 AM): 5 bucks was my value bet
Me (5:26:45 AM): lol
Me (5:26:53 AM): let me guess..
Me (5:26:56 AM): u wanted to wait to see if an ace hit
Him (5:26:59 AM): yeah
Me (5:27:04 AM): this is the wrong mentality....
Him (5:27:08 AM): as u can see, i only lost 13 bucks
Him (5:27:49 AM): i'm not gonna put 70 bucks on a hand where i can easily lose
Me (5:28:04 AM): if ur not willing to put in alot of money when u KNOW u have the best hand
Me (5:28:09 AM): then whats the point of playing poker


Me (5:38:17 AM): if you have
Me (5:38:18 AM): AA
Me (5:38:22 AM): and u know someone flops a flush draw
Me (5:38:27 AM): how is not charging them to draw
Me (5:38:29 AM): better than
Me (5:38:31 AM): making them draw for full pot
Him (5:39:30 AM): but is it necessarily smart to do that when you and the other guy are holding 3 buyins?
Me (5:39:25 AM): where does the value come from in checking and hoping he misses
Me (5:39:31 AM): he's not going to call you for any money with a busted flush
Him (6:05:37 AM): let's say there's 40 in the pot
Him (6:05:48 AM): nah actually, just 30 is good
Him (6:06:03 AM): u push for 85
Him (6:06:08 AM): he calls 85 for 200
Him (6:06:29 AM): that's 42%
Him (6:07:14 AM): when u play 42% pot odds for a 33% chance to hit
Him (6:07:22 AM): you're not THAT bad
Him (6:07:25 AM): that's the bottom line
Him (6:08:12 AM): will u agree that playing 42% pot odds for a 33# chance to hit is not ridiculously bad?
Him (6:08:18 AM): it's bad
Him (6:08:28 AM): but it's not ridiculously bad
Him (6:08:33 AM): would u agree?

(i go back to the topic of that QQ hand first before moving on since this was the original disagreement)
Me (6:21:04 AM): u had this guy beat
Me (6:21:07 AM): thus
Me (6:21:10 AM): if u KNOW u have him beat
Me (6:21:13 AM): and he will call hoping to hit an ace
Him (6:21:15 AM): i was 99.99% sure i had him beat
Me (6:21:20 AM): explain how it is correct
Me (6:21:23 AM): to only bet $5
Him (6:21:27 AM): that's my value bet
Me (6:21:30 AM): ok
Me (6:21:32 AM): and what im saying is
Me (6:21:35 AM): this bet is not optimal
Me (6:21:51 AM): if u know u haev him beat and that he will call hoping to hit an ace
Me (6:22:01 AM: why are you only betting $5
Him (6:23:56 AM): when i said i KNOW i have him beat
Him (6:24:01 AM): do u think i mean 100%?
Him (6:24:04 AM): or 99.99%?
Me (6:24:09 AM): so what you'er saying is
Me (6:24:13 AM): because of the .1% of the time
Me (6:24:15 AM): where ur wrong
Me (6:24:17 AM): u'd rather bet small
Me (6:24:19 AM): and be careful
Me (6:24:21 AM): so u dont lose?
Me (6:24:23 AM): lol
Him (6:25:43 AM): now is my read 100%
Him (6:25:47 AM): or is it 90%?
Him (6:25:54 AM): is my read 100% or 90%?
Him (6:26:14 AM): don't tell me u never made a wrong read
Me (6:26:37 AM): so now you're saying that you're not going to use your reads but instead going to play safe in the event ur read is wrong?
Him (6:26:46 AM): right
Me (6:27:14 AM): using your raed and being correct nets you far more money than playing every hand you don’t have the nuts soft
Me (6:29:13 AM): lol
Me (6:29:20 AM): this reasoning is completely off man
Me (6:29:29 AM): u are worrying about the small %'s instead of the big picture
Me (6:29:42 AM): it’s like, if u dont push hard with AA because of the few times where AA loses or is outdrawn
Me (6:29:48 AM): then u are losing alot of value

Him (6:30:11 AM): hold on...
Him (6:30:14 AM): i'll find u a hand
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 23, 02:43:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 72747 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Friend ( $51.60 )
Seat 2: patmanl89 ( $188.13 )
Seat 3: zyr001 ( $95.20 )
Seat 6: kazu2000 ( $70.50 )
Seat 4: mmoore7144 ( $100 )
Friend posts small blind [$0.50].
patmanl89 posts big blind [$1].
mmoore7144 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Friend [ Jd Qh ]
zyr001 folds.
mmoore7144 checks.
kazu2000 calls [$1].
Friend calls [$0.50].
patmanl89 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, Js, 2h ]
>You have options at Table 65303 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Friend checks.
patmanl89 checks.
mmoore7144 checks.
kazu2000 bets [$2].
Friend calls [$2].
patmanl89 folds.
mmoore7144 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
Friend checks.
nickatnite18 has joined the table.
kazu2000 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
>You have options at Table 65303 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Friend checks.
kazu2000 bets [$7].
Him (6:32:25 AM): isn't it much easier to fold?
Him (6:32:34 AM): when i have nothing commited?
Him (6:33:17 AM): top pair off the flop in the blind
Him (6:33:25 AM): it's easy to fold with only 3 dollars commited
Him (6:33:33 AM): right?
Him (6:36:07 AM): kazu2000 bets [$7].
>You have options at Table 72438 (6 max) (No DP) Table!.
Friend calls [$7].
kazu2000 shows [ Ad, 8d ] a pair of threes.
Friend shows [ Jd, Qh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
Friend wins $20.90 from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and threes.
mmoore7144 has left the table.
Him (6:36:18 AM): ... i won the hand
Him (6:36:27 AM): and i made more money playing my way than yours
Me (6:37:37 AM): you're playing scared and not to lose
Me (6:37:43 AM): instead of playing to win
Me (6:37:47 AM): thsi is not optimal
Him (6:37:48 AM): dude... i make more this way
Him (6:37:53 AM): people just bluff into me
Him (6:48:30 AM): post that hand on 2+2 for me

Me (6:51:14 AM): My main point is that I don’t think good players would agree that waiting to see if u've been outdrawn first before betting to be good strategy. I think it’s weak tight.
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  #2  
Old 12-23-2005, 09:07 AM
trumpman84 trumpman84 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2
Default Re: My friend and I are having a disagreement, comments?

Looks pretty weak tight to me...especially when your friend knew he had the best hand and missed opportunities to bet for value. I think you said it when you said that your friend is playing not to lose rather than playing to win. He is losing the least when he loses, but he is not winning nearly enough when he wins.

The only way this hand could've possibly been correct is if he knows his villain is a terrible player who will call off his chips with A high on the river on the trips board. In that case, he can check it to the river, then overbet all-in on the river when an ace doesnt fall. However, 95% aren't so terrible as to call a huge overbet with nothing but ace high.
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