Some $200 sng "what would you do" hand quiz's

[Sam T.]

Yug. Being the short stack is fun.

Hand 1: I let this one go. Granted the Villain is going to be pushing with a wide range of hands, I'm going to take my chances on one of the other shortees busting out. I might push with this hand (esp. into one of the other microstacks), but I don't like calling. If it's KT, sure.

Hand Two: Push away, pal. The short stack knows the big stack will probably call, so he's dropping everything that's not a premium pair. Also, if the big stack is so inclined, he may fold to keep the bubble from bursting.

Hand Three: Push. Only short-stacks left to act, so your FE is high.

Hand Four: I'm going to chicken out on this one and say that it's read-dependant. But I'm inclined to push.

Sam

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold
Call (Yes call)
Push
Fold

All are close, 2 is not a push (It is in a $10)

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I see why. You have zero folding equity (your point about the $10, I think, is that you have some folding equity against an idiot). If you call, the SB should not go all-in, because then you have a great chance of folding your way into third place. If you go all-in, the SB can also go all-in and still get third place.

I had something similar happen at a $10 + $1. 4-handed play. I'm in the SB with 760 chips. Blinds 150/300. I'm dealt KQo. Button (big stack) raises to 600. I call, with the intention of doing a stop-and-go. But the BB goes all-in, and the button calls him. I have 160 chips left. I fold, the BB's AT loses to the button's AJ, and I get third place.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold
Call (Yes call)
Push
Fold

All are close, 2 is not a push (It is in a $10)

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see 1 & 4 are folds. I often feel too tight in these situations when I don't like pushing given the level of aggression prescribed by these boards on the bubble.
What's your thought process on #2, especially given that it seems intelligent and yet no one's really advised it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about how you would play the hand if you were the chip leader and the button limped and SB folded. Would you put him all-in, or leave him with 130 chips? What if you flopped a hand? Would you break him, or leave him with 130 chips?

If the button stays alive, the big stack is virtually guaranteed to win the blinds the following hand, and he may even be able to resuscitate shorty again on the next orbit as well.

Lorinda was thinking outside of the button, here, and it's a nice example of the difference between a good player and a professional.

Irieguy

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

If the button stays alive, the big stack is virtually guaranteed to win the blinds the following hand, and he may even be able to resuscitate shorty again on the next orbit as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fear I am missing something very important here... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

There are two problematic things I see:

1.Is calling really going to get the SB to fold here more frequently than if Don pushes?

It seemed to me that pushing would make it more likely for the SB to fold (by limping I feel one is very much inviting a SB call as a countermeasure to the big stack just letting hero take the blind)...and getting SB to fold here is the key (as the big stack can keep you alive by letting you have the blinds whether you call or push).

2. (this applies more to big stack theory...and doesn't necessarily impact the decision to call or fold as much)

If the BB lets Don take these blinds then the stacks will be:

1350 - BB
880 - UTG (hero)
580 - Button
7190 - SB

Isn't there a very high chance on this next hand that either Hero or the now new shorty button will go allin? I'm not sure the big stack SB here really gets the chance to open push in a 'virtually guaranteed' manner. How often is the BB really just taking the blinds this hand? 40% or 60% of the time (this doesn't necessarily seem more profitable than just calling shorty to begin with)?

Okay, so if the big stack does take the blind then the next hand will look like this:

1050 - SB
880 - BB (hero)
580 - UTG
7640 - Button

Is shorty really going to fold here a large portion of the time (after folding on the button last hand)? After this hand the other two stacks will make sure shorty in the BB will get knocked out I assume so I'm not sure how the big stack can keep shorty alive for future stealing (I'm also not sure how many chips there will be to steal since everyone is getting very short). I guess if the big stack can take the blinds in this hand as well, then the original fold (to keep Don alive) may be worth it. But I guess I'm not seeing how taking the blinds on both hands will happen often enough to warrant the original fold to Don.

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

Wow, very insightful. Thanks Lorinda and Irie...

[brad the fish]

Hand 1 - Reluctantly Call k3o is a Monster!- too much of my small stack is already in. Then wonder why the heck am I playing the 200's when Im in the middle of a 20+ otm in the 20's.

Hand 2 - Push - better then avereage hand, and if the bb wants to keep you around to steal from the other stacks he'll fold and that leaves you with just the sb to worry about.

Hand 3 - Wonder how the seats got mixed around, then - POOOOSH and mutter to myself when I'm called by A5o. Cheer as I hit my 2 on the flop, then swear as the turn comes 3 and the river a 4.

Hand 4 - All In - I need the additional 450 chips to make so I can survive to bust out 4th.

[Scuba Chuck]

Yugo, I'll attempt to explain what I got out of the post.

The dynamics of this hand are very unique due to the position of Ultra Stack and Hero.

1. What's your objective? Stay alive. By calling instead of pushing, you increase your chances of staying alive (very marginal, btw). For example, SB could push over you, and BB could call his push, then what do you do? Second example: SB completes, and you see a flop. You miss the flop, SB pushes, and BB calls.

2. Assuming you win that hand, and it's still bubble in the followup hand, if you fold, and button pushes, it's now left to stack #2 to make a decision on calling, and is much more likely to call, once again increasing your ability to sneak ITM.

These edges we're talking about here are VERY slim, IMO. But I see Irie's point about it being the difference between a good player and a professional.

Scuba
who is very much interested in being corrected if my views are off.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about how you would play the hand if you were the chip leader and the button limped and SB folded. Would you put him all-in, or leave him with 130 chips? What if you flopped a hand? Would you break him, or leave him with 130 chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. You're right, I didn't catch that. Great point.

I stand by my K3o domination comment, though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[jg22]

[ QUOTE ]
Yugo, I'll attempt to explain what I got out of the post.

The dynamics of this hand are very unique due to the position of Ultra Stack and Hero.

1. What's your objective? Stay alive. By calling instead of pushing, you increase your chances of staying alive (very marginal, btw). For example, SB could push over you, and BB could call his push, then what do you do? Second example: SB completes, and you see a flop. You miss the flop, SB pushes, and BB calls.

2. Assuming you win that hand, and it's still bubble in the followup hand, if you fold, and button pushes, it's now left to stack #2 to make a decision on calling, and is much more likely to call, once again increasing your ability to sneak ITM.

These edges we're talking about here are VERY slim, IMO. But I see Irie's point about it being the difference between a good player and a professional.

Scuba
who is very much interested in being corrected if my views are off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow these are excellent thoughts that never would have occured to me.

I have some questions as to how to further play out the hand though.

If you just call, and the shorty SB completes. Would it be smart for the BB to put you both all-in pre flop? If the BB does, do you call? If you call all-in a smart SB would most likely fold, right? When the BB is that huge compared to the field, there isnt that much value for him to steal blinds, is there?

On the flop, do you call all-in on a K high flop? How about on a flop with a 9 but also with a J? Sorry for these seemingly stupid questions, I am just trying to learn and this approach to this situation never occured to me before.

Thanks!

[The Yugoslavian]

Yeah, I realize all of those options.

How does calling allow the Hero to survive more frequently than pushing? Sure it's close....the reason I push is calling seems more exploitable by the SB and/or BB. Pushing puts the SB to a decision and I think will generally get him out of the picture. If the big stack wants to tangle here you're screwed anyway, so your only hope is for him to give you his blinds after a SB fold. I'd much rather be HU here vs. big stack than 3-way with the SB along for the ride.

What seems likely if you call is that SB calls, BB calls. Both check the flop (or the BB bets it and you call and then SB calls) and you're still just as screwed (or more so).

FWIW, however, I still think I'm missing something important in regards to this hand...

Also, as to the second point, I think it's obvious that the BB letting you take the blind is good for Hero. That was not my question/point. What I want to know is whether or not it's so clear that the big stack should (or would) be taking this line here.

Yugoslav