Was This A Good or Bad Gigabet-Wannabe Play?

[DougShrapnel]

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this play isn't all that bad. I like that you are thinking about plays like this. Granted you don't have odds for it. But i think at this stage defending your blinds with an ultra loose call makes defending them that much easier from then out. You may be able to make the tChip EV back just on your image. Although in isolatioin this play is horrible, in the contect of a tourney it can be made to be decent. I'd be more impressed if you where up against AQ and AJ or AK and AK. However I'm folding this unless my chip lead is huge or the implied odds are huge, or if it's the end of a sat.


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isn't this whole post an oxymoran?(meaning contradictory in every aspect)


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Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post. He is thinking a correct way but misapplied his knowledge to an incorrect situation. It happens.


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i am pretty sure the first 30 posts stated and agreed that there was NO correct thinking in this post and I don't understand how it could be "knowledge" if he misapplied it completely. Knowledge starts with "know" so I'm pretty sure if it was actually knowledge(or known) it wouldn't be misapplied--another contradictory statement on your part.

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The 1st 30 post where incorrect to say that this was completely wrong.

His opinion was that he was one of the 3 best out of the 80 left. Also his read was desparation. Additionly he thought that the chips he lost wouldn't affect his standing much even if he lost. Seems like a no brainer if all the things he thought where true, where actually true.

[DougShrapnel]

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How does this defense(with 4-3) make you any scarier. It makes people realize you are willing to gamble with HORRIBLE ODDS and push any better than marginal holding. Makes no sense. I mean this isn't even a marginal holding, it's horrible and makes people want the same action from you and your crap cards to double up through, ESPECIALLY IN SMALL BUYIN TOURNEYS!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ] You may be surprised just how many people aren't thinking odds in a 2$ tourney.

[curtains]

Well since you asked for brutal honesty...

I think that you made a bad read by saying you are one of the top 3 players in the tournament. If you can make a play like this, you should never be considering yourself one of the best players in any tournament. You should learn how to play normal poker before you have such confidence in your abilities.

[bdohaney]

I am with everyone else here. I see no value, either direct or implied with the move you made here. I made a similar mistake with KQs, and it was that, a mistake, where I should have folded. As far as the cockiness thing goes, no, cockiness is never a good thing in poker. Confidence is good, aggression is good, but cockiness is almost always just thinking that you are a better player than you are, and losing your money accordingly because of it.

[FakeKramer]

Hahah... man it doesn't take much to get you guys stirred up on here.

For those of you who gave helpful and level-headed replies; thank you. Lloyd, I was wrong in thinking that if they both had AQ and AJ it would be a good call. Thanks for running numbers that helped point that out.

For those of you with usernames that start with a "p" and end with a "rana"; I hope you're not wound that tightly all the time. I'd imagine you probably have a hard time getting laid if you fly off the handle so easily. Maybe try taking a deep breath next time you reply to one of my donkey threads, and I might actually respect you enough to read and ingest what you have to say. But if you want to keep calling me a "fukkin moron", that works too, 'cause I am one.

Cheers! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Lloyd]

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Lloyd, I was wrong in thinking that if they both had AQ and AJ it would be a good call.

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You should never put your opponents on such a narrow range of hands.

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For those of you with usernames that start with a "p" and end with a "rana"; I hope you're not wound that tightly all the time. I'd imagine you probably have a hard time getting laid if you fly off the handle so easily. Maybe try taking a deep breath next time you reply to one of my donkey threads, and I might actually respect you enough to read and ingest what you have to say. But if you want to keep calling me a "fukkin moron", that works too, 'cause I am one.

Cheers! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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You asked people to be "brutally" ownest. Be careful what you wish for. But hopefully civility will quickly be restored.

This is a great example of why flaming is so counter-productive: it discourages innovation and productive, outside-of-the-box thinking. This thinking is sometimes, probably even often, wrong, but that doesn't mean it is useless and it certainly doesn't mean it should be flamed. Giga's "Gigabet Dilemma" post was probably the single most mind-blowing thing I have ever read about poker. I know I'm far from fully comprehending everything that's going on there, I can tell that OP is as well, but at least he is trying. Virtually everyone flaming him and calling him a "moran", ironically, seems not even to understand what he was trying to do. He may have made a bad play, but he is trying new things, thinking differently, opening himself up to criticism, and a year from now, he will probably be a better player than most of those attacking him for his very willingness to discuss this play publicly in the first place. In the long run, he is the winner, and you guys are the losers.

Keep posting, Kramer, and keep experimenting. I like what you are trying to do. If you're interested, I tried to salvage something productive from all of this in this thread.

Honest attempt at constructive criticism alert:

I think that the problem with making this play is that you are not making any play at all. You are instead calling two all in bets. Calling an all in bet is not a 'play'. Calling all in bets is something that you do when you know that you have the best hand which, let's face it you knew wasn't the case here. What happened is that you got deep into the tourney, felt that you were a great player and remembered a play you saw another great player call a pflop raise with something like 34 suited or 64 suited, hit the flop hard and double up. That sort of a call is a very good advanced play that is viable for one reason. Implied odds. Once your other two opponents are all in in front of you, there is nothing implied with this hand other than you're not real bright to make a call without one of the top 10 or so hands. In order for this to ever be a profitable call over the long term, one of these players needs to have a huge stack behind him, that way when the flop comes A, 2, 5 and your big stacked opponent hits his A and you flop the wheel, you can almost certainly double up with a solid post flop betting strategy.

[MrMoo]

Don't let all the jerks in this thread get you down. Btw, I don't think it was the bad play that caused such a stir, I think it was the top 3 players comment. It's reasonable to be arrogant. I think most people on these boards are. But I wouldn't recommend being so public about it or your just asking to be flamed.

As for the hand. The fact that your recognizing that your two random cards are not _that_ much of a dog against any other hand shows that you're starting to understand some higher level concepts that a lot of internet players don't get. However, I think this hand was taken to the extreme. There are a lot of places where this line will be good. I just don't think here is one of them. 43o just isn't a strong enough hand to be doing this. Yes you may get lucky. But you're far more likely to make a current short stack into a medium stack.

[prana]

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Lloyd, I was wrong in thinking that if they both had AQ and AJ it would be a good call.

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You should never put your opponents on such a narrow range of hands.

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For those of you with usernames that start with a "p" and end with a "rana"; I hope you're not wound that tightly all the time. I'd imagine you probably have a hard time getting laid if you fly off the handle so easily. Maybe try taking a deep breath next time you reply to one of my donkey threads, and I might actually respect you enough to read and ingest what you have to say. But if you want to keep calling me a "fukkin moron", that works too, 'cause I am one.

Cheers! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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You asked people to be "brutally" ownest. Be careful what you wish for. But hopefully civility will quickly be restored.

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Sorry if you got offended by my posts i was just trying to accomodate your wishes. I still think it was a horrible move and said before I wasn't trying to be rude. I however had been drinking for about 8 hours yesterday before I read this horrible horrible play. I just don't understand all your contradictory statements.

1. You are top 3 players of 80.
2. YOU CALL 2 ALLINS IN FRONT OF YOU WITH 43
3. For someone reason you think that this is a sign of a GREAT PLAY [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Let's go with tpfap's comments here about avoiding gambles EVEN IF you might be slightly ahead and are one of the best players in the tournament. I don't always abide by this rule but it does weigh heavily in my decision making because it does make sense and sometimes it is a smart decision. You do the complete opposite and take very much the worst of it by CALLING 2 allins in front of you. I really don't understand your point in this play. You are taking a HUGE gamble on hitting trips, 2 pair, or a fluke straight and risking 1/4 of your stack in doing so. Sorry I got carried away with the "brutal honesty" last night but everything I said still makes perfect sense and I don't see any sense in this play. Peace.

p.s. The comments about me not getting laid were kind of funny because the girl I put to bed after these posts was here laughing at your play too. She's a bad poker playin beeyatch.

peace.