JJ

GTSamIAm · #1 08-04-2005, 06:57 PM

First two people in are fish. The person who raises is decent. I don't really know his raising standards. Other two who coldcall are new to the table. I guess they're probably not good if they coldcall.

I bet the flop so he'll raise and try and force people out. They'll be getting odds to call on the flop, but they'll probably fold because they're scared after the pot was capped. I end up calling down because the pot is huge. But should I ever fold the turn?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 caps, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (22 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

The raiser is a complete fish. I don't really know his raising standards, but I figure he probably has a pretty good hand. Is it possible to fold preflop here? Should I have checked the flop since he capped preflop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

HentaiGaijin · #2 08-04-2005, 07:02 PM

Grunch.

Instead of betting the flop with a preflop raiser to act behind you, you might check-raise and fold to a reraise. If you check-raise and your opponent _instantly_ reraises without thought you are probably beaten. People with AA/KK often pound the raise button when it appears because they've already made up their mind on what to do long before you acted.

I think given that you don't know your opponents preflop standards and you are in really bad position, you can let these hands go when your opponent shows continued aggression. JJ is not a good hand to take up against most player's preflop raisable hands. It is a very good hand to have against passive opponents, when you are in position. (Or against opponents who often make it two to go preflop with weak pairs, but you need to get some reads first.)

benkath1 · #3 08-04-2005, 07:03 PM

Hand one I like.

Hand 2, no way am I folding preflop. I think you played it just fine. The turn and river played out kind of wierd. I'da proabably donk bet the river after his turn check, but I wouldn't recommend it.

ThaHero · #4 08-04-2005, 07:15 PM

Gonna try to grunch, and then edit to save face...lol jk

Hand 1, I think I bet the turn card just because he is unlikely to cap with A8 or K8 etc. If he raises then I check call the river, but when the Ace hits I would consider check/fold as well. Would also halfway expect to see Aces or Kings if raised on turn after betting.

I don't think there is anyway you fold JJ preflop.

Appears he could have played KQs very loosely, or maybe AKs, which doesn't make sense since he would bet the turn or at least the river. I'm probably drawing off too much from his river play since I can see it(doh!) but I think I bet the river here if I suspect a missed flush draw.

Henke · #5 08-04-2005, 07:15 PM

Hand 1 perfect!

hand 2 I assume that you mean loose passive by "fish", or at least not LAG... Then the play is perfect.

#6 08-04-2005, 08:10 PM

I think hand 2 is a "no win" situation really. I actually would have bet on the turn and river because given the style I bet the person had KQ like the previous poster suggested. When the A came the person probably would have done something more than check. So bet out and let him call you.

Henke · #7 08-04-2005, 08:20 PM

If he is a LAG, betting is +EV. But most fishes in the sea are passive (so I assumed that the fish was just that). A passive player don't cap preflop with KQ. But a passive player calls more than they raise, so I would say that at least 3 out of four times we're beaten by QQ or KK, and the fish will call us down if we bet, resulting in a bigger loss.

GTSamIAm · #8 08-04-2005, 09:34 PM

What's the chance we're beaten preflop?

ThaHero · #9 08-05-2005, 02:45 AM

Considering that he is a "decent" player that capped, it's very possible, and probably likely, that we're up against either AA, KK, or QQ. I say we may be beaten but there's a chance he caps with AK or AQ. We can't just fold JJ to a pf cap though.

fflyer · #10 08-05-2005, 03:01 AM

In hand one I would consider betting the river if I know that I am going to call a bet anyway. You never know when someone might fold KK or QQ. Obviously I would fold to a raise. Costs the same bet, but gives you an extra chance to win the hand.
Hand two looks fairly standard, but you could consider check raising the flop and folding to continued aggression in order to save bets in later streets. If by "fish" however you mean that he is very passive and calling down most of the time and only raising with powerhouses you should ask whether he would cap pre-flop and then raise your flop bet with less than AA, KK, QQ. Maybe you could find a fold against that kind of opponent after your flop bet is raised. You would need a pretty good read to do this though.