Great HU hand for discussion

Nfinity · #1 08-01-2005, 06:54 PM

MrWookie has been Sweatin' me while I take shots at the 2/4. We came across this hand and I immediately felt like some or all of my actions were wrong. After some discussion MrWookie got me to wise up on the correct play of things. I felt rather enlightened.

I would like to see what some of our less experienced posters have to say, first.

SB is a LA-P(50 / 19) player who is capable of slowplaying flopped made hands, usually popping them on the Turn. He likes to raise a lot first in, and I certainly expect him to raise here in the SB over calling.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

Final Pot: 5 BB

I'd like to see what some of our less experienced posters have to say about this first. Then the veterans can go about making the corrections to the logic.

#2 08-01-2005, 07:39 PM

hero bets, folds to a raise.

on river (if SB called), if checked to, check. if bet into, fold

numeri · #3 08-01-2005, 07:43 PM

I'm not sure I have much to offer here, but as you're looking for inexperienced posters...

Based on your line about villain's slow-playing, my first inclination is to take the free card for the flush draw. Then I looked again and saw that if villain has a slow-played A, we're screwed. (Reading the board correctly can be helfpul.)

I'd really like to know if villain would bluff check/raise the turn here.

So anyway, I think the turn might actually give us the best hand and we should bet for value. Since villain is labeled as LA-P, we can safely fold to a check/raise.

EDIT: After thinking some more, (and reading responses) a turn bet is only for value if villain will call with less than Q-high, or fold Q-high.

Here are the options with a turn bet:
1) we bet, villain raises and we have to fold = -1
2) we bet, villain folds = +0
(we gain nothing because we had the better hand anyway)
3) we bet, villain calls = +1
(assumes villain will raise with an A or K)

So the question is: Which of these is more likely? My brain hurts from too much thinking, but I'm tempted to say that checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a better play.

POKhER · #4 08-01-2005, 07:43 PM

ok im a newbie ish so heres my go:

Check the turn, Either for a check-raise of whatever.

I check behind, your flush draw looks poor now, A/k and you pay up.

So i check behind him, then check/fold river UI.
Then check/call river if i improve to maybe get a bluff and crying call.

so turn: Check behind.
river: check/fold UI ::::: OR IMPROVE ::::>>>>::: Check/call/bet

MrWookie47 · #5 08-01-2005, 07:46 PM

Hero is IP this hand, so he'll have a hard time check/folding or check/calling.

thesharpie · #6 08-01-2005, 07:49 PM

Check the turn, because if he's behind he usually has no outs against you, you're almost never folding a better hand, I expect queen high to call here. I might just call his river bet unless you think he wouldn't bluff here 1 in 6 times. (Bluffing includes betting a counterfeited pocket pair)

thesharpie · #7 08-01-2005, 07:52 PM

I don't think "improving" really improves your hand much here. If you have the best hand on the turn you probably have the best hand on the river regardless of whether you catch your flush.

POKhER · #8 08-01-2005, 07:54 PM

Why?

he checks, Sb bets, He calls.

Check/call?

I dont follow.. im lost.

ajrenni · #9 08-01-2005, 07:54 PM

I would check the turn, hoping that Villain will call a river bet.

Here is my thinking:

This is a WA/WB situation in which you are probably WA. If he has an A or K, you are screwed, but if he doesn’t, you have counterfeited any pair he has or will pick up. I believe you are more likely to be ahead since (a) the two Aces and two Kings on the board reduce the chances of him having one in his hand, and (b) your read indicates he would likely slowplay if the board did hit him.

If he doesn’t have an A or K, he will probably fold to a turn bet, so you make nothing more. If you check, he might, sensing weakness, take a shot at the river, although if he is passive he will probably check again. This gives you the opportunity to value bet when he is more likely to call you.

If he does have you beat, you have escaped his trap on the turn. If he bets out on the river, I would call, just in case he is betting with J or T high, or he doesn't understand counterfeiting. If he pops the c/r on the river, you can fold.

HentaiGaijin · #10 08-01-2005, 07:55 PM

Grunching.

SB's raise preflop doesn't necessarily mean strong hand, he could have been trying to steal. As your read says, it could just be his standard "any two against the BB" move. On the flop, SB again could be trying to steal betting out on the scary flop. He might have a king or trips, but I think he's also likely to have a weaker hand if he was trying to steal.

He probably would not have lead the flop if he was a slow-playing type and had a monster.

So, given that, I say you bet on the turn. You hope he folds right there. If he calls, you have your diamond outs to draw to. You could even get a split pot. If he raises, you call having pot odds to draw to your flush.

I think if you make your flush, it has a good chance of holding up.