AQ - too tight?

[switters]

$20/$40 at the Horseshoe in Tunica, MS.

I've been playing for about an hour, and the only three hands I've had to show down happened to be AA, AA, and a 37o that I flopped trip 3's with in an unraised Big Blind, so I'm getting some ribbing from the table for being a bit of a tight-a**... After this hand, I think they may have been right.

Three people limp, and I call along with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - this is probably mistake number one. Small blind completes, Big blind checks, and six of us see the flop with 6 SB in the pot.

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

both blinds and the first limper check, the next guy bets. I'm already concerned, because this guy has played very few hands, very tightly - only betting with hands that were *very* likely to be the best, or with very large draws. I put the most likely set of hands that he might have limped with pre-flop, but would bet here, as: {AK, AQ, AJ, JJ, ATs, K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]}. Against this set of hands, I believe I am already a slight underdog, but with the $120 already in the pot, and the fact that any other reasonable hands added to the set of hands above (KJ other than K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], for example) are also hands I can beat, I was planning to raise.

Until the guy between us raised. This guy was not a maniac, but was playing a lot more hands a lot more aggressively than the first raiser. In addition to the hands I put the first bettor on, I would easily add any suited ace (including A4...), any KJ, any QJ, any club draw, 44, to the hands that he would have called with pre-flop and raised here.

I thought about it for a minute, and decided that while I was probably pretty close to even against the first raiser, and getting a nice overlay, and I was probably even more likely to be ahead of the raiser, I was definitely not the favorite against both of them. I knew that I couldn't call, because then I was making it right for the first bettor to call me with any Jack, any Gut-shot, or any Ace, so I had to raise or fold, and if I got re-raised here I had to be prepared to dump the hand on the turn unless I spiked a non- [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q.

So, I let the hand go. I felt really good about this decision at the time, but it's been tormenting me ever since. I think that I let the hand go not necessarily because I knew that a raise was -EV, but because I couldn't see an easy, warm-fuzzy way to play it from the turn on, and I was going to be angry with myself if I raised only to find out I was drawing near-dead to JJ, AK, or AJ in one spot, and against clubs in the other.

So, I guess my question for the forum is - given the pre-flop call instead of a raise, which I'm certain was a mistake, is the play on the flop close between a raise and a fold, or is one clearly right against the kind of opponents I have described? can anyone justify a call?

thanks!

[Michael Davis]

I'd rather call than fold, but raising is best.

-Michael

[Gotmilk]

I dunno, I think this is an automatic 3-bet given the information you have. See if the bettor just calls or raises. This is going to be a see-you-at-the-river hand so giving a free card on the turn isn't a disaster if they check it to you. (Or you can bet the turn and fold to a check raise) Then you might even pick up a bet on the river from the middle guys ace-rag after the club draw checks and misses (or it could come to you bet and raised on the river and you can save some money). There no reason to think you HAVE to be beaten here?

[Paluka]

Why not just save yourself some time and money and stay home and watch TV.

[Avatar]

What kind of warm and fuzzy flop did you want with A-Qo?

[Warik]

Easy 3-bet preflop.

Easy raise on the flop. Remember - they don't know you have a big hand. You may end up 3-way or headsup on the turn depending on the subsequent action.

Terrible terrible fold. You have top pair 2nd kicker in an unraised pot. If you are ahead of everybody then you want them to call you... and don't make the mistake of thinking that just because them calling you is +EV for them because of the size of the pot that it's not correct for you to raise. If there are 1000BB in the pot and I have a pair of aces vs. a flush draw, it's a nobrainer because he is still the underdog.

I think you screwed up preflop, thus encouraging these guys to bet and raise in front of you, thus causing you to excessively overthink the hand and lay down what was probably the best hand.

Correctly raising preflop would have made this hand much much easier to play.

I can't justify a call - it's a raise for sure.

[elysium]

hi switters
you should reraise. you figure to be at least correct pot odds, and maybe better. if the draw gets there on the turn, you can safely fold. if you call the flop, while folding on the turn is probably still correct, those times the draw gets there, it's not so good a fold. there are other reasons to reraise the flop though. folding on the flop is wrong; worse than the failure to raise the pre-flop. now, not raising the flop isn't bad according to a few experts. supposedly, the AQo plays good multi-way. that hasn't been my experience, however, part of the reason for this is because of my style of play. but the call on the pre-flop is preferred over raising by some.

the pre-flop's not important in this hand. not reraising the flop hurt you. you must reraise that game in this spot, every time.

[Diplomatdcm]

maybe i play too much party but i am rasing PF and 3 betting the flop.
Dave

[Cosimo]

No-one raised preflop, so I think hands like JJ and KQs are out of the picture. Between the better and the raiser, I'd say you're looking at a flush draw and an ace, maybe AJo or 44 (but them's the breaks).

You have to raise. The first player will drop if he's on a draw (increasing your chance to win), or cap it (if he's got something very strong). Folding here is just too weak. If you can't stomach the betting, take up tiddly-winks (or tiddle-e-winks, as NPAEM would say).

[nepenthe]

You're seeing way too many monsters under the bed. You didn't raise preflop near the button? You should. Well, not having done that, at least your hand is well-disguised.

While you're seeing AJ and flush draws all over the place after the flop, this is what I see: first bettor has a jack or flush draw, the raiser has an ace with a lower kicker than yours, or vice versa. Or maybe neither of them has an ace and they're just trying to isolate each other.

3-bet here and see what they do. It's not even close.