30/60 canterbury vs worm33

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
you have given him the instrument that is his greatest asset; the ability to raise or reraise, and cut down your odds. that is not your asset that is his. furthermore, you don't know what that aggressive is holding, and that's his second most important asset.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't theses 2 things true whether we raise or not? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Is not one of our assets that we have position but also that he doesn't know what WE have? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Also, you seem to be ignoring folding equity here. If we merely limp, we are giving villain a free glance at the flop with what may very well be an inferior holding. By raising, we may get villain to fold a hand that is currently ahead of us (Qxo, Kxo)).

Also by limping we allow SB to make a completion that is likley profitable getting 8:1.

I can see where an open-limp here occasionaly can be good for deceptive purposes, but to dismiss raising altogether (as with any move) strikes me as foolish.

[skp]

When worm checks the river, he is going to have a hand that doesn't beat JT way more often than he will have a hand with which he is planning to pull of an expert checkraise.

Ergo, BK should bet the river.

It could be said that worm outplayed Bike here but I don't view it that way. I think that they both played it well and worm simply gets the accolades because he won the hand.

If Bike checked the river (when he would have bet against anyone else), I would be more inclined to say that worm outplayed Bike regardless of what hand worm actually held.

[jrlock50]

[ QUOTE ]
When worm checks the river, he is going to have a hand that doesn't beat JT way more often than he will have a hand with which he is planning to pull of an expert checkraise. [ QUOTE ]



Give me an example of a hand that doesn't beat JT that Worm would actually call with.

[skp]

Ak is the obvious example. a medium pocket pair might be another. If Worm would never call with these hands, Bike would have a field day bluffing the river.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Ak is the obvious example. a medium pocket pair might be another. If Worm would never call with these hands, Bike would have a field day bluffing the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know about this skp. calling with a middle pocket pair after bk calls both streets. thats betting he has exactly AK or AT. slim bet...one id pass on. AT doesn't call the turn and AK in bk's hands would like raise the flop.

sometimes, folding the river is just plain correct. worm should fold those mid pairs here, not call. bk wont have a field day bluffing rivers b/c worm is a great player and bk knows this...1 hand does not give bk a 'field day' opportunity.

bk may get ONE extra opportunity or two tops but worm will adjust. ive never met him but i have it on good authority he plays extremely well.

so again, i think bk should check it down.

-Barron

[skp]

I agree with all of what you say. But one can generally only comment on hands in a general sense i.e. what should be the default play?

There may be specific times when you know a particular play is correct. So, if here, worm is convinced that his medium pocket is no good, he can checkfold. But he has to make a mental note of that and take what he did into account the next time.

All I meant was that the default play for worm is not to fold 88 or Ak here. If it were to be his default play (and he never adjusted), BK would have a field day.

That then brings us to the original question: What hands will worm call with that BK beats? I still say "AK or medium pocket". Sure, he may not call on this particular occasion. But then again, he very well might and as a default play, he should because Bike might have AK.

BTW, why do you say that BK would no doubt raise AK on the flop? He capped prefop, yet worm bets out. I may want to get to showdown cheaply with AK if I were BK unless I could elicit reliable info from worm by raising him. But since worm is a very good player, I am not sure that I can count on him to give us reliable info by his reaction to our raise.

If BK would no doubt raise with Ak on this flp, he should be even more inclined to raise with JT on the 97x flop.

[DcifrThs]

skp,

as usual u make great points....i say bk will raise AKo bk thats what i think he'd do...worm knows bk, worm would not lightly 3 bet that raise and would HAVE to have a great hand to do it, not one of those game theory things (or at least less likely the latter) ...

i have a problem w/ the following:

[ QUOTE ]
That then brings us to the original question: What hands will worm call with that BK beats? I still say "AK or medium pocket". Sure, he may not call on this particular occasion. But then again, he very well might and as a default play, he should because Bike might have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that he wont call a % of the time detracts from the value of the bet. you can counter that now worm can call more liberally on the turn expecting a certain % of free showdowns...but this is ALOT to keep in mind at any given point in a hand. its easy for us to say this and that...but in the heat of battle, how many of us can recollect it all? every choice? on every street? i dont think so. so again, i check.

-Barron

[elysium]

hi skp

did worm win it? hurricane season here and haven't had a lot of time to read all threads.

people should spend time reading some of mason's posts about how to play against good aggressive opponents. they are not easy to contend with in many situations, and while these type opponents are profittable, you need razor sharp skill to avoid the many pitfalls presented in the course of an average session with an aggressive in there.

anyway skp, i feel badly because i don't have the real quality teaching techniques that mason and sklansky bring to the forum. i am not expressing what is really happening in the hand as i should be, and not explaining how to handle the particular situation like mason and sklansk. i don't know a lick of jui jitsu, but as a hand unfolds, i beginning thinking in jui jitsu terms. other times, i see things in boxing terms. when i see a player throwing punches when he should be jui jitsuing and visa versa, it really....you know? i get....you know what i mean?

it's disheartening because i cannot adequately explain, really explain why the player should be doing one thing rather than another. it's like, 'that's a jui jitsu situation....no, no, that one is a boxing situation.' but if i take the time to explain one from the other, even i walk away not seeing the difference between the two situations myself.

the main problem is that the rythym of the game plays such an important role in determining what to do. a single hand has no rythym. i would infer that rythym must also be important in martial arts and boxing. posters often do very well, without knowing it, of replicating the game's rythym on paper. you can pick it up.

mike caro says he can close his eyes, turn his ear toward his opponent's hand, and hear what is going on. not too shabby. wasn't radar the deciding factor in the second world war?