K9s on the button

[Aces McGee]

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So when you flat called the flop, were you planning on popping any reasonable turn (as long as the sb doesn't 3-bet the flop) and the picked up spade draw was a bonus?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what was going through my head at the time since it was a few days ago, but as of this moment, I'm convinced that doing so would be the correct play.

-McGee

[peterchi]

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Which part of my line/argument seems to neglect him?

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Well, all of it, frankly. At no point do you seem concerned with trying to knock him out. A double bet on the flop isn't going to do it with 20 SB already in there, and a single bet on the turn won't, either.

-McGee

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I'm pretty sure that if he has anything worth knocking out, he's not going anywhere.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.

[Rico Suave]

peter:

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A friend and I debated this point last night. He argued that SB couldn't possibly be holding anything that it would benefit us for him to fold, except JT which isn't going anywhere ever. Other Kings aren't folding either, most likely.

I argued that it would be nice to fold out even hands like AQ or gutshots.

I ran some examples through a poker odds calculator, and it seems as though my friend was right. I couldn't find any hands where it would actually benefit us to have them fold.

Can someone support or refute this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I can refute this, but I can say that hands like KJs or KTs are going to find it hard to continue facing 2 cold on the turn.

Also, if we just call the turn, the sb is getting 12:1, so hands like AJs, ATs, AQ, etc. are getting the right price to continue.....not so if we raise. Granted, with our flush draw, our opponent is not getting much of an overlay at all to call at 12:1, but figure in the chance that he makes a bad fold with the best hand, and raising looks better than calling.

--Rico

[Clarkmeister]

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Four limpers to me on the button and I call with the Ks9s

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop.

[Entity]

I would raise preflop and probably 3-bet the flop. I'm not folding the flop but I love the idea of 3-betting when it will freeze the action, and it often will here. If it doesn't freeze the action it makes your turn decision very easy when you don't turn a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Rob

[B Dids]

Flop: Ugh, I dislike these spots as all options feel dirty. 3-betting might be best, as you're paying 1BB to find out if you need to continue in the hand. I don't think calling is horrible, and I wouldn't hate a fold either.

On the turn I have a hard time seeing where you're ahead of UTG+1 without knowing he's a manaic. At best you might be buying yourself a free showdown if he's got just a king, but if we don't river our flush, I'm not sure how awesome a free showdown is.

If we don't raise, we may see showdown for the same price, and have something to raise when our flush gets there.

I am "grunching".

As to the preflop limp, I think it depends STRONGLY on the limpers. While I play alot of trash on the button, it's strongly based on the limpers. Against unknowns, I muck quite a few hands that I would play against people I know very well. None the less, K9s against 4 random limpers is playable, so I can't really fault you there.

You're getting 10:1 on the turn, with top pair and the flush draw, and you wouldn't mind knocking out the SB if he's got AQ or QJ, and 10-10 or J-J are leaving no matter what you do. Removing AJ would be good as well.

Also, I am not that convinced you are behind, and you are in position to take a free showdown, which I recommend, given that you are vastly overstating your hand values.

[Aces McGee]

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Raise preflop.

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Man, I'm just getting comfortable playing these suited three-gappers on the button, and now you want me to raise them?

Thanks, though. Any comments on the other stuff?

-McGee

[Aces McGee]

Hi Dids

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On the turn I have a hard time seeing where you're ahead of UTG+1 without knowing he's a manaic. At best you might be buying yourself a free showdown if he's got just a king, but if we don't river our flush, I'm not sure how awesome a free showdown is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget the SB. Trying to knock him out is a big reason why I raised.

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If we don't raise, we may see showdown for the same price, and have something to raise when our flush gets there.

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If our flush does get there, then three bets will go in on the big streets either way: 1 on the turn and 2 on the river if I don't raise the turn; and 2 on the turn and 1 on the river of I do.

-McGee

[Aces McGee]

Because I'm headed out of town for the weekend, and won't be able to check back until Monday, here are the results, though they are inconsequential.

I raised the turn, the SB folded, and UTG+1 called.

River was the seven of spades, checked to me, I bet, he called, and mucked KQo.

More discussion encouraged, if there's discussion to be had.

-McGee