What does Commerce owe this guy?

[HDPM]

It was the player who got in the muck. The dealer should be severly reprimanded for not protecting the muck. The player should be warned away from the other players. That should earn a suspension for the player IMO. What else was the guy doing in the muck and are we even sure the card he turned over was the one, ya know. When players are fishing in the muck you really DON'T KNOW for absolute sure that ace was there before, do you? He was probably just a superstitious rabbit hunting fool tho. Still.

[SpaceAce]

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My opinion is that the floor's ruling was correct. The double burn didn't actually affect the hand in any way... that is, a random card is a random card.


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That's a crock, otherwise dealers would be allowed to pull cards from the middle of the deck and cut the cards in between streets. You can argue all day long that it's still random but the next card in that deck was the one that should have been put out and it would have massively effected the outcome of the hand.

SpaceAce

[Clarkmeister]

"That's a crock, otherwise dealers would be allowed to pull cards from the middle of the deck and cut the cards in between streets. You can argue all day long that it's still random but the next card in that deck was the one that should have been put out and it would have massively effected the outcome of the hand."


I agree. Note that this is also why they "turn the natrual river card" on the turn during a "normal" burn and turn too early situation. They also shuffle the incorrectly turned "natural turn card" back into the deck so it has a chance to reappear.

At the very least, there should have been no burn on the river so the natural river card would have been in play on the river.

[Michael Davis]

Too subtle. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Ed Miller]

At the very least, there should have been no burn on the river so the natural river card would have been in play on the river.

That's fine with me. But the guy clearly deserves no compensation, IMO.

[Dan Druff]

I guess I shouldn't have phrased the question, "What does Commerce OWE this guy?" In terms of legally owing money, Commerce obviously owes him nothing.

I'm talking more from a pure customer service standpoint.

While there was an even chance that the mistake would help or hurt the player with the kings, the fact remains that the mistake changed the outcome of the hand. That couldn't be sitting well with the guy who knows he's over $2000 poorer because the dealer couldn't do things right. While I believe that the affected player "knows better" regarding the fact that his PROBABILITY to win wasn't changed, he still knows deep down that the OUTCOME changed. That by itself has to be unsettling.

At one point I suggested that the player just try to put it out of his mind and move on. His response was interesting:

"Bad beats I can accept. Those can be frustrating, but they're a part of poker. Losing money like this because of an incompetent dealer is what is really bothering me."

In a way, I understand. Once the shuffle is complete, the outcome of the hand (i.e. who will have the best hand) is pre-determined. While the winner can be forced off due to patterns of betting and folding, there is no way to change the way that the cards fall for each player (unlike blackjack). High limit games should be dealt with the utmost of care, to where dealer error does not become a factor in who wins and loses. Remember, there were TWO mistakes here. First, the dealer accidentally tried to deal the turn without the button acting, which led to the second mistake of burning a second card before dealing the turn.

Commerce charges 80-160 players $24/hr, and in turn, there is a reasonable expectation to provide the game with competent dealers. When an obviously incompetent dealer causes a change in the outcome of a major hand, good customer service would dictate that the affected player should be made to feel that the card room cares enough about his business to make him feel better. Free collection for the rest of the session would basically be saying, "We messed up our end of the bargain (providing competent dealers), so you can play on us for tonight."

Of course, Commerce's arrogance is nothing new. Los Angeles, for all of its perceived variety, is really a 1-card-room game. The selection in town is VERY limited once you go above 20-40. Good customer service is usually precipitated by competition. Commerce lacks competition, so they basically don't have to worry much about keeping people happy.

[JoeU]

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otherwise dealers would be allowed to pull cards from the middle of the deck and cut the cards in between streets.

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The reason cards are burned is to prevent cheating. It wouldn't make much sense to burn a card from the middle of the deck if the dealer is stacking the top of the deck.

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You can argue all day long that it's still random but the next card in that deck was the one that should have been put out

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You are correct in saying that the card he re-burned would have been the next card out, but that next card is still a random card. What if it was an off-suit 3? Would we still have this argument? The fact of the matter still stands that the dealer should have protected the muck and the rabbit hunting nonsense should have never happened.

Joe

[andyfox]

Good post.

The guy is wrong, though. He might just as well have won money because of a dealer's incompetence. We've all particpated in a hand where a dealer made a mistake and the board ended up being different than it would otherwise have been. It is as much a part of the game as bad beats because we have human dealers.

Having said this, your points are well taken. Commerce basically doesn't care because where else can the guy go to play? Nowhere. Eventually, though, this arrogance will come back to bite them in the ass. Nothing lasts forever and those things that are taken for granted last less than those that are cared for.

And, as I said in my prior post, the dealers at Commerce seems to be less conscientious in doing their jobs now than ever. And it's not just in the top section. The money on the table in the other room may mean just as much or more to a person playing $6-$12 as it does to the $80-$160 player. All have a right to expect not perfection, but at least a level of care among the dealers so as to mimimize mistakes and sloppiness.

[RowdyZ]

If customer service and the dealers are that bad the player should be able to easily make up any "losses" he thought he be owed by cutting out the tips. Or maybe to help get the point across more take a roll of quarters to the table like a low limit game and tip that it would probably make more of a point that I didn't forget to tip I just don't think much of your service.

[Jackal22]

[ QUOTE ]
If customer service and the dealers are that bad the player should be able to easily make up any "losses" he thought he be owed by cutting out the tips. Or maybe to help get the point across more take a roll of quarters to the table like a low limit game and tip that it would probably make more of a point that I didn't forget to tip I just don't think much of your service.


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I agree. I am normally a very generous tipper. (At least 20% or so at restaurants). The few times I have had exceptionally bad service, I have left token tips instead of no tip. I don't want the server to think that I just forgot. Usually however, if it is that bad, I will let the management know.

Aside: I was at a restaurant once with 7 people. This particular restaurant automatically added a 17% grat to the check if there were 6 or more people. I think that the server thought that he was getting his tip anyway and proceeded to give us the worst service ever. We actually had to get up and walk over to the service bar to refill our pops ourself. When the bill came, we deducted the tip from it and paid the original amount. The server came back and told us we didn't have enough money. We told him we did and he proceeded to get the manager. When the manager came, we explained the situation and he ended up giving us the money for our meal back as well.