SNG Power Tools. What is the logic behind...

[Jman28]

...folding, when a push has an EV only slightly more than folding?

Like, when the EV difference is .2 in favor of pushing. Is it because you expect to gain more edge later on? Preserve image?

And, are these reasons good enough to justify passing up a +EV opportunity?

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Jman28
Subject: Re: SNG Power Tools. What is the logic behind...

...folding, when a push has an EV only slightly more than folding?


[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you can't rebuy. I'll let others elaborate.



Just kidding. I always wanted to say that in a douchebaggish way. I think you assume that as a good player, your inherent skill edge over the field is large enough to find a more +EV push later on.

[helpmeout]

But dont you get more call equity later on when a smaller stack has to push say on button you are BB.

With a smallish stack you cant call with something like A2 QT but if you have a larger stack you can easily make the call knowing that you are a big favourite over his likely range.

So by folding a marginal EV situation before you infact pass up the opportunity to make a future +EV decision later.

It is nice to pick off Button raises when they have J4o and such, this allows your stack to snowball as you pickup so many more EV situations like improved fold equity and the ability to call weak stacks allins.

[wiggs73]

Might want to check out this thread and then this thread. Both are from yesterday and discuss folding in a slightly +EV spot. The 2nd is probably better than the first, although the first is still worth a read.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
...folding, when a push has an EV only slightly more than folding?

Like, when the EV difference is .2 in favor of pushing. Is it because you expect to gain more edge later on? Preserve image?

And, are these reasons good enough to justify passing up a +EV opportunity?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, equity according to ICM is an approximation. It doesn't account for skill value, for example.

So you may determine for any number of reasons that EV_icm is an overestimate of the true $EV. That's one reason to pass on small edges of EV_icm.

Also, there is the "waiting for a bigger edge" factor. This is not independent from the skill consideration. Bad players will offer you more opportunities to take advantage of them, so you may not have to take slight edges when they are likely to offer you bigger edges soon with the same risk.

The answer to your final question is yes. The magnitude however, is a controversial thing, and I don't think anybody can give you a precise answer for how much is too much to pass up. It depends on a lot of things: your relative skill at the table, and in my opinion the second biggest factor is how much play you have left to work with. It doesn't matter how much skill you have if you only have 5 or 6 hands left to apply it. When there's a lot of play left, my feeling is that you can pass on bigger EV_icm edges, and when there's little play left, you should start pressing your edges to the max.

eastbay

[Nicholasp27]

there are a few reasons

1) it's not 100% accurate, so a margin of error is good
a) icm is a model
b) icm assumes equal skill level
c) u never know your opps' true calling range, so your
inputs aren't accurate

2) you may get a more +ev situation in the future...if blinds go up next hand, u will get more chips from stealing next hand than this

3) you pushing here may lower other's calling standards for u, turning future +ev pushes into -ev pushes


in general, a +.5 or higher is the benchmark, but u can lower or raise that depending on the situation

for instance, if blinds are about to go up, u may wanna change the value of what it says the ev is, as u have info that the program doesn't account for that should be factored in...

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
But dont you get more call equity later on when a smaller stack has to push say on button you are BB.

With a smallish stack you cant call with something like A2 QT but if you have a larger stack you can easily make the call knowing that you are a big favourite over his likely range.

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes a lot of sense.

However, you don't run into a lot of situations where calling a large all-in bet is going to be very +EV...so I'm not sure that the ability to make more calls is that big of a factor. You'll find a lot more spots where you can profitably push than call, obviously.

[helpmeout]

Im talk about situations like

You 1500 (doubled up from previously marginal EV situation)
big stack 3000
player A 1000
player B 1500
small stack 500
small stack 500

blinds 75/150

You are BB small stack pushes on the button you have A2/QT etc.

With a 750 stack you cant really call this because you will be crippled when you lose but with 1500 you can easily make the call.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Im talk about situations like

You 1500 (doubled up from previously marginal EV situation)
big stack 3000
player A 1000
player B 1500
small stack 500
small stack 500

blinds 75/150

You are BB small stack pushes on the button you have A2/QT etc.

With a 750 stack you cant really call this because you will be crippled when you lose but with 1500 you can easily make the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make an interesting point but your example is flawed. Unless SB is horrible you can definitely make a profitable call with A2 QT (and many weaker hands) even if you only have 750. It's true though that calling won't be AS profitable as if you had 1500.

[helpmeout]

Also what about when you get a decent hand.

Mr Big stack is making 2X3X BB raises pretty frequently you have say A9o with a small stack you have no fold equity here.

You push he has an easy call, with a larger stack you push he folds.

Same with SB vs BB situations big stack raises 2X3XBB you cant do anything when you have a small stack. With a larger stack you push he folds.

He also now knows that he cant make weak raises and force you to fold so you make extra EV because he has to tighten up.

He loses EV on his previously successful weak steals.