To ALL players and owners in New York City - PLEASE READ

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your lawyer friend is wrong. Section 225.00(5) of the Penal Law provides as follows:

"Profit from gambling activity." A person "profits from gambling activity" when, other than as a player , he accepts or receives money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity. (emphasis added)

I hope you didn't have to pay for his advice.

While I agree that this lawyers advice was of base, your response leaves out a little bit as well

PL 225.00(4)

[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity"
when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which
materially aids any form of gambling activity. Such conduct includes but
is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment
of the particular game, contest, scheme, device or activity involved,
toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia,
equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement
of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the
playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement of any of its financial
or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. One
advances gambling activity when, having substantial proprietary or other
authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for
purposes of gambling activity, he permits such to occur or continue or
makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
§ 225.05 Promoting gambling in the second degree.
A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the second degree when he
knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity.
Promoting gambling in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the point is that one need not profit from the gambling activity, merely advancing the activity is illegal.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to do this, but I have to rain on your parade because I already proposed this to a lawyer recently. Use this as an analogy; the organizer of a home game is free and clear of the law if he loses money in the game. Once he profits from the game, he has broken the law. Profiting includes winning a pot, it is not restricted to time charge or rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

First I was going to say that this 100% incorrect -- but it is not. However, the law is far more nuanced then TT's attempted analogy makes it appear. The law has circular definitions.

In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law. The club would also not last more than a few months as it would like collapse under its own weight.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean it would be legal you would be wrong. If you mean that it would be left alone by the cops you are probably correct.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, if there was a truly private club with strictly restricted entry to members, there would be no problem with the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean it would be legal you would be wrong. If you mean that it would be left alone by the cops you are probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, as a matter of fact and law I would be correct. [I am talking about a club in the form of cooperative discussed earlier in this thread -- which would actually be more of a home game than a poker room anyway.]

Explain to me how yoyur little private cooperative club is going to avoid advancing gambling activity as defined by NY Law as:
[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity"
when, acting other than as a player, he engages in conduct which
materially aids any form of gambling activity. Such conduct includes but
is not limited to conduct directed toward the creation or establishment
of the particular game, contest, scheme, device or activity involved,
toward the acquisition or maintenance of premises, paraphernalia,
equipment or apparatus therefor, toward the solicitation or inducement
of persons to participate therein, toward the actual conduct of the
playing phases thereof, toward the arrangement of any of its financial
or recording phases, or toward any other phase of its operation. One
advances gambling activity when, having substantial proprietary or other
authoritative control over premises being used with his knowledge for
purposes of gambling activity, he permits such to occur or continue or
makes no effort to prevent its occurrence or continuation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this club going to come into existence without someone organizing it, soliciting player/members, where is the game going to be held . . . if you rent space someone is going to be responsible for renting the space. Tables are just going to spring up at the location? Chips will just magically appear (you could play with cash), whose going to make sure that only memebrs get in? how are memebership fees going to get collected, who will hold them? If not self dealt who hires the dealers? In case of dispute is there a floorperson?

[JFB37]

If you think about it, this whole thread goes against the idea behind the op. What are the odds that someone with NYPD is reading this board? What are the odds that someone with NYPD has registered here and is posting in these threads to keep them going? How do you know?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Read the definition of player in the statute:

[ QUOTE ]
"Player" means a person who engages in any form of gambling solely as a contestant or bettor, without receiving or becoming entitled to receive any profit therefrom other than personal gambling winnings, and without otherwise rendering any material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation of the particular gambling activity.

A person who gambles at a social game of chance on equal terms with the other participants therein does not otherwise render material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation thereof by performing, without fee or remuneration, acts directed toward the arrangement or facilitation of the game, such as inviting persons to play, permitting the use of premises therefor and supplying cards or other equipment used therein.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now reread the section you quoted:

[ QUOTE ]
4. "Advance gambling activity." A person "advances gambling activity" when, acting other than as a player , he engages in conduct

[/ QUOTE ]

If no one is receiving "fee or remuneration" they are players and not advancing (or profiting from) gambling activity.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think about it, this whole thread goes against the idea behind the op. What are the odds that someone with NYPD is reading this board? What are the odds that someone with NYPD has registered here and is posting in these threads to keep them going? How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

The op is against the idea behind the op...

[JFB37]

[ QUOTE ]
The op is against the idea behind the op...


[/ QUOTE ]

nh, sir.