Chasing

[BettyBoopAA]

It's correct to chase (six players in a raised pot) because of all your outs and the chance to scoop, you have backdoor nut lows, backdoor flush and a gutshot for a scoop.

As for second question


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Similarly, when I have a premium high hand and only catch one card, it seems like taking one off can be right. Suppose I raised with AcQcJdTs and the flop comes with
Jh7c3d. Any turn card 9-K or higher gives me a few outs for a scoop and some give me a huge draw. Even low clubs will probably be OK for me if the betting on the turn remains pasive. My current thinking is that I want to raise preflop with these kinds of hands precisely because I want to have the proper odds to see the turn when I get a flop of this sort. On the same note, how would changing the 7c to the 7s change things?

Your idea of raising to see the turn with the correct odds is wrong.
it may be correct to take a card off on the turn with this hand but any low card on the turn, clubs or not is a disaster for your hand, half the pot is gone and you have nothing but top pair and flush draw. You will lose money playing this way.

[Jim Morgan]

I think we have failed to communicate. I was referring to rasing before the flop as a means of allowing myself to be more likely to have the proper pot odds to CALL on this sort of flop. I was not suggesting raising on these flops,

In very passive crowds I think this is not nearly as weak a play as you suggest. but I suspect that, as you say, it is a money loser in the long run since so many turn cards will give someone a good reason to bet the turn. And more importantly, I may simply get reraised, which would be a disaster.

If however, It is checked to me, I will sometimes bet this kind of flop. (I raised pre-flop AcQcJT and the flop comes Jc7d3s). My opponents "put me on low". and some of them are the sort who would be betting the stronger high hands, so my high pair may not all that bad after all.

Now look what happens after I bet...

If a low card comes, they check to my non-existant nut low. Now I get a free shot at a river that I would not pay to see because I have only a few shbby outs for half a pot. Maybe the turn is an 8 and I river a A, J or 9, all of which are probably going to give me the high fairly often.

If, instead, a high card comes, they may decide to bet out with 2 pair or something, but since most or all of the high cards give me a great draw, I don't mind and I might even want to bet/raise myself. And getting a free card is still quite possible, since even though poeple put me on a low, they tend to check the turn without a high set or a made flush/straight when someone bet the flop. They forget that I am probably looking at another A237 that is quite eager to check this ugly turn. They often check to the better unless they pick up the nuts.

Even if the board pairs, it is not a disaster. Most people in my game will "put me on low" and bet their trips. If it is checked to me, I can bet again with what could easily be the best hand if there were not many callers on the flop.


Jim M

[BettyBoopAA]

Hi Jim,
I understood your raising before the flop but I don't like the raise with this hand. Your raise gives people the correct odds to chase as well. This is the kind of hand you want to play cheaply and flop two high cards and make people pay to chase their lows. I have seen passive games turn because of bad preflop raising, what stakes are you playing at.

[Buzz]

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I was referring to rasing before the flop as a means of allowing myself to be more likely to have the proper pot odds to CALL on this sort of flop.

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Jim - Why on earth would you want to get yourself stuck in a pot when you have a poor fit with the flop???

All the limpers will probably secretly (or overtly) groan, tentatively put you on A-2-3-X, and toss in another bet. Thus you do give yourself better pot odds for the second betting round by raising before the flop from late position. However, you also give all your opponents better pot odds for the second betting round. In addition, you may not get more from them on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds (despite their slightly better odds) when you do catch a nice fit with the flop yourself.

There are some excellent reasons for raising before the flop, but raising to increase your pot odds on the second betting round is not one of them.

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If however, It is checked to me, I will sometimes bet this kind of flop. (I raised pre-flop AcQcJT and the flop comes Jc7d3s). My opponents "put me on low". and some of them are the sort who would be betting the stronger high hands, so my high pair may not all that bad after all.

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Well... yes it is that bad, after all. However, you've made a good point. By raising with a starting hand with which you should limp if indeed you play it at all, you do throw your opponents off the track.

You would be a tough opponent for me to face. I'll give you that. To counter your helter skelter pre-flop raising strategy, I'd probably start largely ignoring your raises, but I'd still keep a suspicious eye on you, carefully watching to see if and when you changed gears. But you'd be tough to face.

AcQcJT is not a premium high hand in Omaha-8. And when the flop is Jc7d3s, you missed a decent fit with it. Period.

And you seem to recognize that fact when you write, "I have only a few shbby outs for half a pot."

For that particular flop you want A2XY or JJXY. (Something like QT98 would be all right too, but you shouldn't be voluntarily playing middle-card-crap like QT98 (even if double suited) in a limit-Omaha-8 game).

Are you going to play AcQcJT for probably half the pot after you, yourself, recognize you missed the flop? I don't care if you cost yourself two bets on the first betting round or not. It's time to dump that hand.

I think there are places to bluff in this game, but I don't think this is a good spot to try.

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Now look what happens after I bet...

If a low card comes, they check to my non-existant nut low.

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Baloney. Holding either A2XY or A4XY after this flop, I'm betting straight into you, just to see what you'll do. (I'm more likely to hold A2XY than A4XY). I have opponents who will bet into you with less than that.

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Now I get a free shot at a river

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Dream on.

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that I would not pay to see because I have only a few shbby outs for half a pot.

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It's good for you that you recognize that.

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Maybe the turn is an 8 and I river a A, J or 9, all of which are probably going to give me the high fairly often.

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Yes, granted there are some ways you can win high and even scoop - especially if you catch runner-runner. Or your pair of jacks might hold up for a scooper. But that all seems kind of far fetched to me. Sure, it's possible - but I think it would be a mistake to play for it.

But I don't think it's a bad idea to raise before the flop sometimes with a hand that probably shouldn't raise. Good advertising - and tough to play against!

Just my opinion.

Buzz