2/4 KK Ace falls on river.

[ryanghall]

I think to come over the top with anything but AA at that point, he'd have to be not a LAG, but a complete idiot.

Ryan

[Aisthesis]

I think there are several ways to play this hand.

1) This guy is by my standards a pretty loose raiser, so I don't object to making it something like $200 PF with the intention of calling an all-in (I see too many players of this kind re-raise all-in on QQ or even AK to want to lay it down here). Against this particular player, I think I really prefer playing the hand this way.

2) Assuming this read is correct, I also don't think you're really drawing to the set against an AA here (or at least, the re-raise range is much larger than AA). On the other hand, it IS a re-raise that wants to get a caller. Seems rather pointless without AA, but I saw someone do it the other day with 88, so whatever. If you DO put him on AA, then I think, as initial raiser, you just have to check-fold this board. I've been experimenting around a lot with representing a set on KK, but I don't see how you can really do it after raising PF on this particular board (if there were a J or Q on the board, that's what I'd try to do).

The tricky part here is really not getting in deep, then ending up laying down to QQ, JJ, here very possibly AK. I'd really like to have a better read before proceeding to play the KK fast PF, but I think this guy is just loose enough that he might well be inclined to come over the top of you with QQ or AK. So, I do prefer playing it fast PF against this player.

I also have no real objection to just flat calling PF, but then I think you want to check-fold unless you set (or can at least credibly represent a set). With these KK hands, I really think you have to decide PF how much credit to give your opponent (and how conservatively you want to play). I don't have a problem getting in for $55 (in a sense, actually $35, since your initial raise was obviously fully legit) and then laying down the best hand, but I do have a problem putting in $155 and then laying down the best hand.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there are several ways to play this hand.

1) This guy is by my standards a pretty loose raiser, so I don't object to making it something like $200 PF with the intention of calling an all-in (I see too many players of this kind re-raise all-in on QQ or even AK to want to lay it down here). Against this particular player, I think I really prefer playing the hand this way.

2) Assuming this read is correct, I also don't think you're really drawing to the set against an AA here (or at least, the re-raise range is much larger than AA). On the other hand, it IS a re-raise that wants to get a caller. Seems rather pointless without AA, but I saw someone do it the other day with 88, so whatever. If you DO put him on AA, then I think, as initial raiser, you just have to check-fold this board. I've been experimenting around a lot with representing a set on KK, but I don't see how you can really do it after raising PF on this particular board (if there were a J or Q on the board, that's what I'd try to do).

The tricky part here is really not getting in deep, then ending up laying down to QQ, JJ, here very possibly AK. I'd really like to have a better read before proceeding to play the KK fast PF, but I think this guy is just loose enough that he might well be inclined to come over the top of you with QQ or AK. So, I do prefer playing it fast PF against this player.

I also have no real objection to just flat calling PF, but then I think you want to check-fold unless you set (or can at least credibly represent a set). With these KK hands, I really think you have to decide PF how much credit to give your opponent (and how conservatively you want to play). I don't have a problem getting in for $55 (in a sense, actually $35, since your initial raise was obviously fully legit) and then laying down the best hand, but I do have a problem putting in $155 and then laying down the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

good one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

fim

[Aisthesis]

I really agree with you here, Ryan, but I see them do it all the time. More typical would be a QQ flat call, but I think if you make it $200, you're in too deep to give him credit for AA. I just can't bring myself to put in half my stack, then lay down to the final all-in.

Given the whole betting sequence, I really think this guy had AK or QQ/JJ(he's too tight to have had A8o, anyway, I think, but I also don't exclude something down to AJ, certainly not QQ or JJ), possibly also an AA that he was hoping you'd bet into. QQ/JJ also are still pretty realistic, as he may correctly figure the A to be a scare card.

What I really think the problem is with KK is getting into these muddled types of situations, and the only way to really avoid them is to decide very clearly PF what you're willing to give your opponent credit for. Then, if you're wrong, you're wrong, but if your worst mistake is getting it all-in PF on KK, then you really don't have too much to worry about (and I say this as someone who has thought a LOT lately about some alternative KK strategies).

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]

I also have no real objection to just flat calling PF, but then I think you want to check-fold unless you set (or can at least credibly represent a set). With these KK hands, I really think you have to decide PF how much credit to give your opponent (and how conservatively you want to play). I don't have a problem getting in for $55 (in a sense, actually $35, since your initial raise was obviously fully legit) and then laying down the best hand, but I do have a problem putting in $155 and then laying down the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the first time I've seen someone suggest to play KK for set value ...

[j0wlev]

I get the money in on the flop. Flat-call his preflop reraise, lead at the pot for about 80 on the flop, make a nice little continuation type bet something he can play back at. You make it 80 and he makes it 240 or 250 to go, you can push. The hands I see in his range calling your flop push are QQ or JJ. AK will have to toss it. If Mr. LAG flopped a set or has AA you are going to lose your stack anyways.

Basically you are out of position and you want to win the pot on the flop with the push, Villan will call enough times with QQ or JJ to make up for when he has AA or 44,66,33.

The weakness you showed on the turn, and check-calling down is what made Mr. LAG make a play at you on the river, I'd like to believe he has an AK but it doesnt seem likely. The bet is too big on the river, no value involved.

[Eegs]

you completely butchered this hand. BET THE FLOP. if u Check, check calling is not an option...you CR allin. each card you let fall increases your chances of losing a big pot.

[Rotating Rabbit]

[ QUOTE ]
you completely butchered this hand. BET THE FLOP. if u Check, check calling is not an option...you CR allin. each card you let fall increases your chances of losing a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

(slightly random) maybe its me, but when i read this i thought of the emperors' lines in star wars rotj 'with each passing moment you make yourself more my servant' but adjusted to sound 'with each passing card you make yourself more my buddy'. yea, its probably just me.

[RikaKazak]

NO!!!, you lose your stack to AA and go with it.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Oh yuck. Trapping is all well and good, but this guy seems pretty bad. Bad players, particularly LAGs who love to bluff, are particularly bad in large pots. I want to build this pot as much as possible preflop. One of my favorite lines in a hand like this is to re-raise preflop and then check/call the flop. These LAGs just CAN'T check once you check it to them on the flop. It's really amazing. You could put in 100 raises preflop but he's still going to bet the flop most of the time when checked to. So I would often re-raise to $120 or so here and then just c/r the flop all-in. When I don't c/r the flop, I'll lead for half pot and call a push.