The Nuts and a tough 2/4 river decision

[Marlow]

SB (400) is a complete unknown. BB (~140) is a slowly dying loose passive who has done nothing noteworthy. Hero covers both opponents. It's a 4-handed game.

UTG folds, Hero raises to 12 with AcKc, SB and BB call.

Pot: 36

Flop: Qc 9d 8c

SB leads with $20, BB calls, Hero calls.

Pot: 96

Turn: Ad (Qc 9d 8c)

Checks around. (BTW, I'm very suspicious of SB at this point, which is why I check.)

Pot: 96

River: 5c (Ad Qc 9d 8c)

SB checks, BB makes a horrible (for me) underbet of $12. Hero...?

As I see it, SB's made hand just got snapped off, and he prolly knows it. SB could have caught a little something at the end, or is just stealing or clueless. But he could also have a weaker flush and is trying to induce a big bet (that's he's too skeered to make). What's the best raise amount here and why?

Marlow

[Rotating Rabbit]

Get more $ in the middle on every street and preflop !

[Aisthesis]

Well, the only reason I would have probably just flat called that particular flop (as you did) rather than making a strong raise as continuation bet/semi-bluff was the possibility that SB might have JT and price you out of the flush draw.

I still don't exclude this possibility, as he may have expected you to bet when you hit the A. Another option is AQ (I'm surmising that's what you put him on?). BB looks to me a lot like he was drawing to a little flush and made it on the river.

I think I'd just make it around $60 to go here and see what happens. You might get lucky and get a raise from a lesser flush (or even the straight), but I think there's a decent chance that they'll both just flat call. It's really just a moderate "selling your hand" bet.

[Niwa]

What do you think he will call? Depending on opponent I would make a pretty big raise, I would much rather raise to $100 straight than making his $12 to $50ish.
If you put any of these on a good hand I would raise to $100, this is a 4-handed game goddammit!

I would play it like this: Start by raising more preflop.
Call the bet on flop, bet the turn and call if re-raised.
Hopefully all-in on river.

This hand is easier to play with a bigger pot. First mistake was to make a tiny raise pf.

EDIT: Omg this was four handed? Get more money in on every street.

First of all I think you should have made it 16$ preflop.
Second, I think your flop bet is very weak. You should have made it 30-36$ instead (Close to or a potbet) Dont forget you are up against TWO opponents!
You dont have a made hand and if they can fold to 30-36$ is wonderful. Your bet just want them to call with a lot of hands that can kill you.
You do hit on turn, bet it! getting raised? Start to calculate the odds!
River: Bet and hope someone pays of with a straight or a lower flush? What else where they callin allway with?

[Marlow]

I really don't see the point of a raise on the flop. There are way too many possible hands that SB is reraising with, especially because the board is so scary, and he'll seek to protect his hand. And I really hate being all-in here. So it looks like we agree.

What you see on the turn is precisely what I saw as well. SB looks dangerous here. I knew that a bet was an option, but I decided that I would take my free card and either: get the BB to call a bet on the end if I hit the nuts; or call down another moderate bet from SB with my TPTK.

In any case, $60 sounds like a good amount here. Does anyone bet less? Does anyone bet pot?

For those who advocate getting more money in on the flop and turn, I'm interested to hear your arguments against the line I used. I feel fine with my preflop raise as it's standard for the game and I'd like to see a flop.

Marlow

[Marlow]

SB was leading on flop. I called.

[fuzzbox]

I think its mostly fine, and I dont think there is anything wrong with preflop or flop. I might raise the flop, but calling is ok too.

On the river - I probably bet half of BBs stack and hope SB calls and he pushes, so we can get it in.

Alternatively - I might set BB in and hope SB thinks Im bluffing and calls with top two.

[Niwa]

Didnt think of this.
I like the line where you set BB in.

[Marlow]

I decided to bet the pot, and both players folded.

Oh, and immediately after the hand ended, SB volunteered that he did, indeed, have the str8.

I had terrible nightmares about this hand. Playing that last bet over and over again in my head. It was awful.

Marlow