5-10 big pot at the Bike

[riverboatking]

villian in this hand is a very tough/tricky pro, has a WSOP bracelet (in stud hi/low), is by far the best player on the table, and has me way covered.
he is a little steamed after losing a couple big pots, but i don't think this guy ever goes on tilt.

my image at this point is fairly solid. i've been showing down quality hands, however i have shown a willingness to semi/bluff.

i feel as though i am a better player then most at the table, and have been winning fairly easily in the game, the pro is really the only one i don't want to tangle with.

ok on to the hand.
i'm in the BB w/J5 and ~2.5K. villain is on the button and has around 6K.
4 limpers to me and i check.

Pot: $50.

flop J52 rainbow.

i lead for 50 all fold to villian who makes it 150.
i call quickly.

turn comes 3 still rainbow.

i check, villian bets 400, i think for a minute and call.

river comes 9.

i check, villian takes a chip off his cards like he is going to check, i take my chip off my cards ready to showdown, he sees this and goes back to his stack.

he bets 700.

i call.

thoughts, comments?

[DanK]

I think you should rerais on the flop to 400 or so. I think It's important for you to find out if he is on a set, and this is the best way to do it. Otherwise you will be calling down large bets drawing very slim. As the hand played out, it seems like he diden't have the set you might be worried about, but reraising and then leading the turn for 5-600 (if he just calls on the flop) is what I would do. if he raises any of these bets again I think it's now a safe fold. This way you save the bet(or your stack) you might call on the river when you are beat. What do you guys think of this line?

[Louie Landale]

This is terrible advice against a strong tough tricky fold: play your hand in such a manner that he can bluff you with impunity on the river. This would make sense against someone (most of us) who don't have the guts to make a big river bluff against someone known to have a fairly strong hand, but isn't good advice against this player.

Making a play "to get information" only works if you won't get the info some other way, if the info is very reliable, AND the information is very useful. Against this kind of player the info isn't reliable.

- Louie

[cero_z]

Hi DanK,

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should rerais on the flop to 400 or so...reraising and then leading the turn for 5-600 (if he just calls on the flop) is what I would do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent way to go broke against a set. If he does have a set, a good player with position obviously just calls on the flop, and probably on the turn, too. But even if he reveals himself on the turn, it has cost you about 800, and you didn't get to see his hand. Riverboat's line cost him 1100, if he was beaten, and he got to catch possible bluffs, and extract more against smaller hands who thought they were value betting.

[BK_]

if you wernt planning to call down, calling quickly on the flop was probably a mistake vs a good player. im sure you would give it a bit more thought with a set. by the end, he can pretty solidly put you on a mediocre 2 pair or possibly even JA, which is no good for you.

[Utah]

I think you push the turn here. If you call, there is approx 1100 in the pot. Your allin raise is a nice 1.5x times the pot (approx.). I dont see how he can call. The only hand that scares you is 2,2 and that is very unlikely given his play - i.e., why would he try to push you off on the flop with 3 raggedly cards? I am guessing he has J,X, Q,Q or a mid-pair.

If you just call the turn, then there are a lot of cards you dont like to see on the river - any overcard or a 4.

Come to think of it, I would probably have reraised the flop given the shakey holdings.

[BK_]

oops wrong hand

[cero_z]

Hi Utah,

[ QUOTE ]
I think you push the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. There's only one unlikely draw on the flop, so if you think your hand is good enough to push on the turn, push on the flop. Not that I think it is. Pushing the turn is a losing play in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
2,2...is very unlikely given his play - i.e., why would he try to push you off on the flop with 3 raggedly cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's a very good player, and he wants it to look like he's trying to push you off. He knows that he won't get paid off against a skilled opponent, unless they also have a very good hand, so he loses nothing by raising here. Well, he loses riverboat if he was semi-bluffing, but given this flop and his picture of riverboat as "a little weak-tight," that's not too likely a scenario.

What you're suggesting is to play a big pot with this hand, which I don't think you can profitably do against an expert who has position on you.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
but given this flop and his picture of riverboat as "a little weak-tight," that's not too likely a scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

who said he viewed me as a little weak-tight?
i don't think that was his picture of me at all.
while we hadn't really gotten involved in a pot together, my image is definately not one of weak tight.
first of all i'm the youngest player on the table (24), and as i mentioned in my original post, i have shown a willingness to semi-bluff.

[cero_z]

Sorry, bud.

[ QUOTE ]
who said he viewed me as a little weak-tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I mixed it up with another post I'd just read. My point was that even though you'd shown a willingness to semi-bluff, there's only one or two hands to semi-bluff with on this flop, and I don't think he expects you to lead into the field with 43 or 64.

I've read the results now, and I agree with Louie that you accidentally maximized your EV, especially with the little move at the end. As I indicated in my first post to you, I think he has a pretty clear check on the end with bottom 2. I have no doubt that your willingness to get the hand over with led him to "value-bet" you on the end. And even with that info, if he thinks you're good, the only hands that he should expect to get called by and beat are overpairs (unlikely) and AJ, which many good players wouldn't call with in your spot.