discussion of my main leak ( playing too aggressive on loose tables )

[Adam22]

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at 5/10 because the players are tighter than on 10/20 ( which is a strange phenomenon but it's pretty consistent i've found ) it's a lot easier for me to steal the blinds or win the pot on the flop by betting stuff like KJs, QTs, KQo, ATo etc from pretty much any position. i do very well at 5/10 betting stuff like this preflop because i'm not likely to get callers and when i do they usually reraise and i'm done with the hand on the flop. at 10/20 i'm much more likely to get a couple of calls from weak players who call me down with low pairs, weird draws, whatever.

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I don't play online, but I have a hard time imagining that there are very many 5/10 tables where its profitable to raise QTs or ATo first in from early position. It seems like if the table is this tight then it must be hard to make any money at. You said that you generally only make money with these hands when you don't get any callers - if that's the case, why not raise 72o, if your only real chance is to the steal blinds? I mean, if you raise ATo UTG, get 3-bet, and see a flop of A38, what are you going to do? I don't mean to say that there are all junk hands - they're not and should be raised often - its just that raising them from "pretty much any position" can't be right. I suspect that to some extent you've just been running well with these hands at 5/10 and it has little to do with the difference between 5/10 and 10/20.

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at 10/20 i'm much more likely to get a couple of calls from weak players who call me down with low pairs, weird draws, whatever.

so basically what i'm asking is

1) has anyone else experienced this and is it definitely something that might be a major problem?

2) am i correct that it is suicidal to raise stuff like QTs MP when i have a 40 vpip and a 30 vpip left to act after me? i just did this prior to deciding to make this post, looked at their stats and literally grabbed my hair, realizing that there was no way i was playing that hand in that situation profitably.

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The 10/20 game you describe sounds a bit like the live 8/16 games I play in. A lot of players will actually cold-call raises with hands that they won't limp with - everyone like big pots and thinks they can outplay everyone. The only real change that I make to my raising standards is the normal loose game adjustment - be more inclined to raise hands that play well multi-way (like KTs) and avoid some of the more marginal high-card type hands (like KJo).

In your example (raising QTs from MP with two loose players behind you) I think it could go either way - it really depends on how they are going to play after the flop. 40/30 vpip doesn't mean a lot to me, but if it means that they will call with lots of weaker hands than yours, then you have an edge here you can push - especially if your raises will make them more likely to make FTOP mistakes post-flop.

Short Version
1) Yes, it's a mistake to raise these hands from just anywhere, regardless of the game.
2) Especially in looser games, you have to be prepared to play post-flop with these hands - you can't just give up if you fail to steal the blinds.

(btw, thanks for asking this - thinking about the answer has made some things clearer to me, I think)

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yeah you make some good points. my bb/hand for some of the hands we're talking about over roughly 160,000 hands ( of various limits ( 100,000 5/10, 40,000 10/20, a little bit of 3/6 and less than 1000 of 6 max )

ATs: .89 bb/hand , 73.65 PRF
ATo: .23 bb/hand , 64.22 PFR
KJs: .55 --------, 59.42 ---
QJs: .08---------, 41.42 ---
QTs: .07---------, 30.63

does this look weird to anyone?