Standard Plays.... Not so standard, to me.

[ScottTheFish]

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MUCH more likely that you are ahead, and you have a very good chance in an average game of taking it down uncontested.

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This is where we disagree. We are probably ahead, but I think the chances of taking it down uncontested vs. 3 opponents at 50 and 100 NL is approximately 0%. No way you take it down often enough here to be betting any 2. (assuming no reads)

They will call with as little as 2 overcards, which they all probably have.

I like my spot in hand 2 much more (again adssuming no reads). I have fewer opponents, a higher pair, a higher kicker, and 3 outs to a big hand. Position is important, but it's not everything.

[xorbie]

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Very, very surprised to the first three responses in this thread about hand #3. There's 4 people in the hand. 3 have shown no interest in the hand and checked to hero who is last to act. You should be betting with any 2 here most of the time much less 2nd pair. You should almost always be betting second pair or third pair, if you are last to act and you have a benign board and it's been checked to you. Small pots add up. You take this down right here 80% of the time at least. And some of the other 20% you win a medium sized pot against a drawing villian or when your hand improves.

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This is very true.

[Mackerel]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Your hand in #2 is not significantly better than your hand in #3, but your position is night & day worse. I would never say that position is the ONLY thing, but here it pretty much is.

Also, I've put in quite a bit of time at the 50's, and maybe Party (or whereever) is different, but in the average 50's I've played in, you're odds of taking it down PF are at least 50%. Of course if people are regularly check/calling PSB's on flops like that with overcards, fine, don't bet with air (although I still would occasionally just to take it from them when the turn blanks), but I'd still bet here and any other time I could to punish that leak.

Out

[ajmargarine]

Scott, you really really need to look at this and examine it closely. Orphan pots (pots that no one has shown interest in) are ripe for the taking in NL. OP's example hand is something you should be betting 100% of the time. If you are a TAG player with a good table image, folks aren't going to want to mess around with you for such a small pot.

There's 4 BB's sitting out there for the taking. Let's say this play comes up 3 times in 100 hands. Twice you take it down uncontested. Once you get called and you shut down and lose your 4BB flop bet. You won 8 and lost 4 BB's and you just increased your BB/100 by 4. I guarantee that this works far more than you think. And, I think you will find more than 3 opportunities per 100 hands to do this.

I made a post about this a long time ago here.

[ScottTheFish]

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Scott, you really really need to look at this and examine it closely. Orphan pots (pots that no one has shown interest in) are ripe for the taking in NL.

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Point Taken. I understand all that and believe me I will take stabs at pots with much less than 2nd pair. I'm just talking about this one situation, with 3 opponents. I just don't see 3 people check folding on the flop very often if ever in the Party 100s that I play.

I play 6 max and steal tons of smallish pots. i doubt I'm losing much by not betting here 4 way, especially since I rarely limp from the button, I'm too LAG for that [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]