Feel & Timing

[johnsy]

This is a very general post, so take it for what it is............No one on this site talks about the "feel" or "timing" of the game that they are in......It is my opnion that the answers to many of these postings are just as much "feel" as logic and math answers......In the los angeles NL games, it is my belief that these are the most important attributes to making a profit....information about players as well as proper instincts and the ability to trust your own instincts are the things that seperate the good and the great.....ive been playing for 15 years(5 seriously) and i believe have just finally gotten good instinct into motion.........their in lies the answer to many questions i see on this forum.....just like to see more about the subject in the posts.....thanks for letting me ramble.......any comments greatly appreciated

[Nero]

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just as much "feel" as logic and math answers

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i hear this same thought from many of my friends, co-workers, ect. all the time. all the "feel" and reads help you do is refine the math. you put your opponents on a # of hands based on your "reads". you refine this range of hands down based on your "feel" for the way the hand is going. you take all this information along with stacks, pot odds, ect. to decide what is the correct play based on his probable holdings.

in the end it all comes back to the math.

[johnsy]

sure it comes back to the math, but the great poker player "feels" properly........anyone can learn odds and make plays that are mechanical, but as we all know thats not always the best play.......what does sensing weakness and making bluffs in a particular hand have to do with pot odds??? not as much as "feeling" ( to a good degree of accuracy) that you can make your oppent lay down a hand thats superior to yours......

[collegeplayer1]

[ QUOTE ]
sure it comes back to the math, but the great poker player "feels" properly........anyone can learn odds and make plays that are mechanical, but as we all know thats not always the best play.......what does sensing weakness and making bluffs in a particular hand have to do with pot odds??? not as much as "feeling" ( to a good degree of accuracy) that you can make your oppent lay down a hand thats superior to yours......

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i know what you are talkign about...

[Nero]

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what does sensing weakness and making bluffs in a particular hand have to do with pot odds???

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it has everything to do with odds. if the pot is X and you make a pot sized bluff, it has to be succesfull 1/2 the time to break even. "feeling" that your opponent is weak is why you believe the bluff will win you the pot over half the time.

[johnsy]

thats exactly what im talking about....knowing your opponent is weak and knowing he will lay down......not guessing..knowing........"feeling" ...i dont wanna show a profit because im right more than 50% of the time...i wanna know and make the right play 90% or more of the time.......because i know......

[plinkochip]

I agree that feel is important, especially in a NL game where you can be put on the spot at any instant. However, the odds are still going to be the core. Not only that, but when you're talking about feel you're talking about what's happening in the moment, which doesn't lend itself well to post-hand analysis.

Put another way, feel comes with playing experience and is unique to the individual player and situation. You can't read about it.

[turnipmonster]

I think this stuff is important too, but mostly in live games. timing tells on the net are far less reliable IMO. as nero said this stuff is mostly used in estimating equity in a given situation.

I think it more comes down to knowing your player than recognizing specific generic tells. some people shake when they're bluffing, others shake when they have a big hand. I play with a guy who shakes all the time. sizing up people is a very important skill though.

--turnipmonster

[Ionphore]

I am not saying this is right - but it is my take on this issue:

Nero has it right. You can feel to the point you feel euphoric. But it doesen't matter johnsy. Winning poker comes back to the math for the most part. Even on a great feel/read, whatever, you are still wrong a % of the time and right a % of the time. And there is a certain amount in the pot, and certain amount each player has behind. You have to take all these things into account. Its pretty clear it all comes back to the math, and the game cannot be seriously profitable unless you combine both, but you need the math base. You seem to be trying to make a case that a player can be a serious winning player strictly on feel. Just because you can feel out everything right doesen't mean you are going to win. Per example: If I have a dead on read on some guy that he has an overpair, and the board is scary. And he is a tight player. It doesen't mean based on my 100% read (for this purpose) that I should move him off of it. Because he can make a good read/feel and come back over the top. If you acted on every correct feel then people would figure you out. Again its back to the math, pick your spots, vary your game, and play the percentages...

[johnsy]

LMAO ..... i shake all the time......... anyway of course the math is the basis, but i rarely see any posts about what was really going on in the hand......all the facts and math, but what was the read??? alot of info is almost subconcious because the events gereally happen quickly.....and u get that "feeling", and know your opponent has QQ or whatever.....and then in a given situation making a bad mathmatical play that is correct even so.....and making that play be correct most of the time..... i guess i just wish these posts had more info, esp. "feel".....