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View Poll Results: What is your standard devation in BB/100 in NL
12 5 9.80%
13 0 0%
14 0 0%
15 3 5.88%
16 4 7.84%
17 2 3.92%
18 1 1.96%
19 0 0%
20 0 0%
21 1 1.96%
22 or higher 35 68.63%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 10-06-2005, 05:32 AM
usmhot usmhot is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

Dear, oh deary me!!!

Its not difficult to guess at what your own position is. Basically, you have posed an incredibly fuzzy question and you're imposing a clearly prejudiced interpretation on the 'statistical' results. If the figures were the other way round would your interpretation be something like 'Aha, most people think its more reasonable to believe in God so it must be'?

I've been on both sides of the fence, and in my experience the people most open to the ideas and arguments are the non-believers. When I was an ardent young Christian, I had many long and interesting conversations with non-believers who were always (to a person) open to hearing my beliefs and reasons for believing.

Allow me to give another interpretation of your results - it seems to me that the human condition demands the hope of continued existence and so we cling desperately to any slim chance that there is an afterlife. Which makes non-believers far more open to the possibility of God and makes the believers completely closed to the possibility of there being no God. The non-believers have only 'reason' to convince them, against their natural urges, so fully appreciate that it is 'reason' that supports non-belief. Whereas, intelligent believers realise that it comes down to faith and that to maintain belief involves a departure from reason alone. So most people will vote that non-believers are more reasonable (even if many would think their reasoning is flawed or insufficient).
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2005, 05:36 AM
usmhot usmhot is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

So, an example of a prophesy fulfilled is the parting of the seas?
And, there is independent evidence that this occurred?

Or maybe more recent prophesies such as the Christ's rising, for which we need not only rely on the anecdotal evidence of desciples and family?
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2005, 05:47 AM
Aytumious Aytumious is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Given that there exists not one piece of evidence that god does exist, it is reasonable to think that he does not.

The person who relies on reason to justify their belief in god is no more reasonable than the schizophrenic that thinks his tuna sandwich channels the instructions of the apostle Paul.

In short, if you want to believe in god, reason cannot be your justification, since there are no reasons. Faith is a different topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this.

One of the definitions of reason is:

[ QUOTE ]

3. An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence: There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were an Israeli who was born after Moses led your fellow Israeli's out of Egypt (therefore you missed the whole "waters parting" spectacle) and a so-called "prophet" said x was going to happen, and the probability of them knowing x was going to happen at that time was so slim it would make roulette seem like a +EV game, and x did happen - you would have reason to believe what they say, or at the very least investigate their claims and keep an open mind.

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And tell me, what is this x of which you speak?

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I don't know, pick any prophecy from the old testament. (it was only the prophets which kept the Jews together)

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the "prophet" making a lucky guess have to do with the reasonableness of god's existence?
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2005, 06:22 AM
sexdrugsmoney sexdrugsmoney is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

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Given that there exists not one piece of evidence that god does exist, it is reasonable to think that he does not.

The person who relies on reason to justify their belief in god is no more reasonable than the schizophrenic that thinks his tuna sandwich channels the instructions of the apostle Paul.

In short, if you want to believe in god, reason cannot be your justification, since there are no reasons. Faith is a different topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this.

One of the definitions of reason is:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

3. An underlying fact or cause that provides logical sense for a premise or occurrence: There is reason to believe that the accused did not commit this crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were an Israeli who was born after Moses led your fellow Israeli's out of Egypt (therefore you missed the whole "waters parting" spectacle) and a so-called "prophet" said x was going to happen, and the probability of them knowing x was going to happen at that time was so slim it would make roulette seem like a +EV game, and x did happen - you would have reason to believe what they say, or at the very least investigate their claims and keep an open mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

And tell me, what is this x of which you speak?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, pick any prophecy from the old testament. (it was only the prophets which kept the Jews together)

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the "prophet" making a lucky guess have to do with the reasonableness of god's existence?

[/ QUOTE ]

All prophecy does have the possibility of being freakish chance, coincidence, lucky guess, or magic trick.

It's all a wager Aytumious, at the end of the day nothing is certain, no matter how much both sides argue and shake their respective books about ... it's all a gamble.

If something has a possibility to be true, then it has a possibility to be true, how big and small you rate those things is up to you. You just place your wager on what you think is the best bet and go from there.

But I don't think dismissing all theism as blind faith and without reason is correct. The Jewish people were repeatedly enslaved and persecuted and prophecy was the only thing to keep them together through all that when it would have been so much easier to abandon their faith.

Prophets like Daniel, Ezekial, and Isaiah, and Moses showed them something that made them go willingly into the lions dens and fires singing psalms to their God when renouncing their faith would have let them stay with their families and have citizenship with whoever was ruling them at the time would have been a much easier option.

Therefore if a prophet said God said x would happen and x did happen, one could either reject x citing coincidence or listen to that prophet and wager they were telling the truth.

Were they? Who knows? But it's important to note that that the Israelites stoned many "prophets" which came whose prophecies failed, so one would think they weren't easily duped by "one guess wonders" and these prophets who claimed to be talking for God knew that if they were lying they faced immediate death.

Not all theists are 'emotional lightweights' needing the shoulder of an invisible father to lean on when life gets rough, there is reasoning involved in some cases.

Cheers,
SDM
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2005, 09:47 AM
Georgia Avenue Georgia Avenue is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

I do agree with your criticism, particularly the fact that my question was "fuzzy". However, this----&gt;
[ QUOTE ]
If the figures were the other way round would your interpretation be something like 'Aha, most people think its more reasonable to believe in God so it must be'?

[/ QUOTE ]is not the case:



No, then I would have to admit that it is Christian people (at least in this small sample) who are more narrowminded and illogical. Happy that was not the result. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I'm not saying that atheists as a group are more predjudiced, but it seems to me, that this poll does show that a bigger percentage of believers than non-believers are willing to presume that their position is "reasonable" while their opponents' is "UNreasonable." I think that's a modest claim, and I think it's held up by lots of anecdotal evidence in the many discussions around this board.

Your alternative explanation may be true...but I doubt it. I haven't heard any god-lovers around here arguing that their position is based entirely on faith, without justification, particularly when the alternative is "BELIEF that God does not exist," which I specifically chose rather than "Doubt that God Exists."
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  #26  
Old 10-08-2005, 09:53 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

"I'm not saying that atheists as a group are more predjudiced, but it seems to me, that this poll does show that a bigger percentage of believers than non-believers are willing to presume that their position is "reasonable" while their opponents' is "UNreasonable." I think that's a modest claim, and I think it's held up by lots of anecdotal evidence in the many discussions around this board."

Of course you are right. But it could not be otherwise. Reason being that almost all non believers disbelieve BECAUSE they think believing is unreasonable. Believers on the other hand do not believe primarily because they think disbelief is unreasonable. The fact that religious people are more willing to admit that disbelief is not unreasonable merely shows that even they realize that their beliefs are on shaky grounds.
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  #27  
Old 10-09-2005, 02:35 AM
benkahuna benkahuna is offline
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Default Re: POLL---Who is more Reasonable

I consider absolute belief or disbelief in G-d to both be dogmatic (and therefore unreasonable) positions.

I don't think being unreasonable is necessarily some terrible thing though.
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