Thinking about Shania progression.

I don't think planning this is such a good idea. Let me explain.

For you to establish such a tight, pushover image, you would have needed the correct hands. Obviously, if you are dealt AA and KK twice each, and they all win in the first three rounds at a table, you won't be able to establish that image. Unless, you plan on folding big winners for meta-game reasons [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. So, given that, you would need to blank a few flops and fold some hands that are likely to be losing first.

Then, after that happens, and your image is established, you still need everything to be conditionally right.

You have this pushover image and you can no longer blank flops with AK, AJ, KQs, etc. because 22,33 and the like will be calling you down more often than usual. So, you will need to have something with larger showdown value in order for your image to work for you. Also, you have to hope all the players who you've just gained an impression of you STAY at the table. This seems like too much of a parlay to spend all that time planning an image.

The key to success here is to remember who thinks what about you in all given situations and to act accordingly afterwards; take their stats into consideration and make the necessary adjustments. But, by all means, don't try to plan this ahead of time. The cards will get in your way and you'll wind up blaming bad luck when it all goes wrong.

[Grisgra]

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I don't think planning this is such a good idea. Let me explain.

For you to establish such a tight, pushover image, you would have needed the correct hands. Obviously, if you are dealt AA and KK twice each, and they all win in the first three rounds at a table, you won't be able to establish that image. Unless, you plan on folding big winners for meta-game reasons [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. So, given that, you would need to blank a few flops and fold some hands that are likely to be losing first.

Then, after that happens, and your image is established, you still need everything to be conditionally right.

You have this pushover image and you can no longer blank flops with AK, AJ, KQs, etc. because 22,33 and the like will be calling you down more often than usual. So, you will need to have something with larger showdown value in order for your image to work for you. Also, you have to hope all the players who you've just gained an impression of you STAY at the table. This seems like too much of a parlay to spend all that time planning an image.

The key to success here is to remember who thinks what about you in all given situations and to act accordingly afterwards; take their stats into consideration and make the necessary adjustments. But, by all means, don't try to plan this ahead of time. The cards will get in your way and you'll wind up blaming bad luck when it all goes wrong.

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I think the only real "plan" in what I've outlined above is that at 20/40, given the skepticism/aggression of most of my opponents, semibluffing and pure bluffs should be use sparingly at best until people have reason to trust you -- and the only way they'll trust you is if you show down a couple quality hands in a row. If you start raising after folding a couple times in a row, they are just as likely to think that you're playing back at them for revenge as they are to think that you actually have a hand.

[luckyharr]

I'm liking this thread mainly because there's a lot of discussion about what other player's think of you. I think table image is a component of hand reading that often gets ignored. Your bluff/semibluff attempts, showdown percentage, etc should all be variable based on your opponent's image of you at that moment. Have you been running them over? Have you been making a lot of turn/river folds? Despite that, the vast majority of hand history posts do not include a read on the player's table image at the time of the hand.

[Grisgra]

Bumpety bump.

Good post and discussion.

Keep in mind Sklansky's opinion that all bets -- including bluffs should be +EV in themselves. That helps with the over-rationalization point you mention.

Other than that the take-away from your post should be that WHATEVER your table image may be you need to be aware of it and adjust accordingly. To me, this is when poker starts to get a little more interesting since it requires thinking several layers deep (how am I playing? How do my opponents perceive me to be playing? How will the specific opponent(s) in the hand react to the way they perceive me to be playing? How can I adjust to capitalize on their reactions? etc.)

[helpmeout]

I tend to look at shania over the past few hands or situations mainly.

I havent really thought that much about it lately cos I have got so many other leaks in my game.

Some things I think about sometimes, obviously these go both ways.

1. This dude seems to be 3betting me a lot i better see what he has/play back at him. If you are 3betting someone frequently without having your cards shown then he is likely to play back at you soon. I'd probably trim back a few 3bet hands and induce bluffs with weaker type of hands.

2. folding to turn raises over the last few hands. People will notice, probably time to call down.

3. folding to river raises

etc etc you get the point

Just try to be aware of who is doing what at the tables and make slight adjustments.

[Grisgra]

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Other than that the take-away from your post should be that WHATEVER your table image may be you need to be aware of it and adjust accordingly.

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What I find especially interesting about this process is figuring out the starting point, i.e., the general tenor of whatever game you're playing, be it 20/40 on Party or 1/2 on Paradise. Figuring out what the "default" is -- and, similarly, how others will probably perceive you before they get a read on you -- is an interesting challenge in and of itself.

What I'd like to do in this thread is try to hammer out some specifics. It's easy to say 'be aware of your table image', much more difficult to describe exactly what that means, and how one adjusts.

[Grisgra]

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I'm liking this thread mainly because there's a lot of discussion about what other player's think of you. I think table image is a component of hand reading that often gets ignored. Your bluff/semibluff attempts, showdown percentage, etc should all be variable based on your opponent's image of you at that moment. Have you been running them over? Have you been making a lot of turn/river folds? Despite that, the vast majority of hand history posts do not include a read on the player's table image at the time of the hand.

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Which is one reason that people posting nothing but PT stats get mocked heavily . . . speaking of, anyone see naphand lately?

[Surfbullet]

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2. folding to turn raises over the last few hands. People will notice, probably time to call down.



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This really is a big one, especially at the 10/20 IMO. I find even the 50/10 type players will take a shot at me HU on the turn if they see me fold 2-3 turns in relatively short sequence. They pin me as the "folder" of the table and just go for it.

Another way to combat this is 3bet more turns, because then the c/r'er has to fear being 3bet and it will trim back more marginal c/r's...I know I personally(for the most part) only 3bet premium holdings on the turn, and I think this is a hole in my game HU since it leaves my opponents recognizing that the worst they have to fear is a call on the turn.

Surf

[spydog]

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Which is one reason that people posting nothing but PT stats get mocked heavily . . . speaking of, anyone see naphand lately?

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No. And haven't heard from Scotch78, either. Hummm.......