I guess it's time to get it all in -- flop bluff

scdavis0 · #1 11-07-2005, 01:28 PM

Without reads I would consider this bluff pretty standard. His most likely hands are a draw or weak two pair. An overpair has any made hand he has crushed, and he can't call with a draw. Of course sometimes he'll show you the nuts.

Raising to $70 and then shutting down may be a less expensive way to get the same result.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($126.43)
CO ($113.25)
Hero ($207.90)
SB ($135.70)
BB ($18.24)
UTG ($373.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $13, SB (poster) calls $12, 1 fold, UTG calls $11, MP folds, CO calls $11.

Flop: ($56) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $8, UTG folds, CO folds, Hero calls $194.90 (All-In)..

#2 11-07-2005, 01:36 PM

or you could fold..

Ghazban · #3 11-07-2005, 01:40 PM

There's a great Ray Zee post somewhere in the archives where he talks about bet sizing and betting the smallest amount that will make them fold when you want them to fold and the largest amount they will call when you want them to call.

Anyway, why push when raising to $45-$50 has the exact same effect and is hella cheaper? If you had clubs or something that had some chance of winning the hand if called, pushing might be okay but you don't need to get called very often for this to be a -EV.

scdavis0 · #4 11-07-2005, 01:45 PM

I'm just not crazy about him calling a raise to $45 with a club draw trying to gamble and hit.

If I was going to raise less, it would be to about $65 minimum.

I think we'd agree that this type of bet in these games is rarely a hand that can stand this sort of flop action. When everyone else does me the amazing service of folding, my raise seems almost mandatory.

Why raise a 45 suited (essentially a junk hand) in position if you aren't going to squeeze out every bit of equity in every situation?

Ghazban · #5 11-07-2005, 01:47 PM

I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

scdavis0 · #6 11-07-2005, 01:48 PM

Yeah I thought about it after the hand that raising to $70 achieves exactly the same thing, but saves the extra $35-40 when he has a monster.

To respond to some other posts, I'm representing exactly AA/KK which I would absolutely play in this manner on the flop. Surely you guys aren't going to just call this bet on the flop with an overpair?

Any decent raise that kills his odds to draw to a flush puts over 1/2 his stack in the pot, so might as well put him on all-in. I'd also play a hand with a 3 in it in this manner. Just go ahead and get all-in and see if he calls. With the nut full I'd probably just call and let him catch a flush or something.

MarkD · #7 11-07-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote, and this entire hand, makes me want to learn NL more.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 11-07-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do? It violates my no bluff agreement, so I think it is definitely NOT mandatory. If I had, say, a pair, or ace high, then it wouldn't violate my no bluff agreement since I could have good faith belief that my hand was best. With 4 high or whatever he has (I forget), I cannot bluff here.

Ghazban · #9 11-07-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with the raise; just the amount. I agree that the raise is mandatory.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do? It violates my no bluff agreement, so I think it is definitely NOT mandatory. If I had, say, a pair, or ace high, then it wouldn't violate my no bluff agreement since I could have good faith belief that my hand was best. With 4 high or whatever he has (I forget), I cannot bluff here.

[/ QUOTE ]
So are you folding? I raise just about any two here against most players because they are either trying to price in their club draw or they are trying to see if their puny pocket pair is good because I missed with AK. They almost always fold their pairs (patting themselves on the back for their wise "see where I'm at" probe bet) and call with their draws, then check/fold the turn if they miss (again patting themselves on the back for their wise fold and for not chasing (again) a flush on a paired board). Once in a blue moon, somebody will 3bet it and I can do a nice long gee-its-tough-to-fold-aces here pause and fold. There are only a handful of players in this game that make my decision at any point difficult with a hand like this on a board like this.

theweatherman · #10 11-07-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not crazy about him calling a raise to $45 with a club draw trying to gamble and hit.

If I was going to raise less, it would be to about $65 minimum.

I think we'd agree that this type of bet in these games is rarely a hand that can stand this sort of flop action. When everyone else does me the amazing service of folding, my raise seems almost mandatory.

Why raise a 45 suited (essentially a junk hand) in position if you aren't going to squeeze out every bit of equity in every situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, you should be crazy about him gambling with incorrect odds for the flush.

I agree that if you are planning on raising in position then you probably have to bet almost any flop (maybe not a As Ks Qs) But your over bet is ridiculous and terrible.