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  #1  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:03 PM
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Default Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

I've noticed that on .5/1 Party tables that checking the flop tends to get more action on the turn. The cases that I notice this is when a big hand hits the flop but there is a two flush as well. The pot is too big to make the flush draw wrong with the small bet so I check and wait till the turn to lead out. Here is an example:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

No, I don't know why I didn't bet the river, bad kero, no biscuit.

This example may not be the best because I wasn't even thinking that someone had hit the straight, but since starting to wait to the turn instead of leading out I've noticed that it's like the other players think the flop missed me and are more likely to bet into me with 2nd or 3rd best hands. I'm not using this as a standard line yet because it seems a little too fancy and most flush chasers don't pot odds from pot roast. Thoughts?

Edit: Got rid of the straight from the example hand, dissregard anything straight related in this post.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:05 PM
Vote4Pedro Vote4Pedro is offline
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

This board is waaaay too coordinated to allow for a free card...I almost never check behind when I was the PFR, but if I do, the flop is usually K72r
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:08 PM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

I don't like giving free cards. This is too fancy IMO. Just bet they will give you their money.
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:12 PM
gharp gharp is offline
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

I think not betting the flop is pretty bad, but there's a certain logic to it. Still, you're putting yourself in a situation where you could be putting money in only when your behind and none when you're ahead.

And not betting the river is a crime against all the Micro Limits Forum stands for!
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

OK, this is bad example because the board is double coordinated. I should have found an example that didn't include the straight draw.

Forget the straight. Forget the straight. Forget the straight. What I tell you 3 times is true.

The point is that the pot is too big to bet someone off a flush draw on the flop. It's a case where betting doesn't improve your odds of winning. Waiting for the turn gives you a better shot at getting rid of a flush draw. Not much with the micro limit players but still. What I've noticed is that when the flush misses the turn I tend to get more action compared to un-coordinated boards where I lead out on all streets.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:15 PM
gharp gharp is offline
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

You really can't drive a flush draw out -- the odds are just too good for them (or you, when you have the flush draw).

Here is a good post from the archives on this topic.
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:17 PM
shant shant is offline
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

People have really started to misapply the hand protection "wait for the turn" concept. You can't lose the flush draw, so just bet your hand for value and collect the money. Giving correct odds is better than giving infinite odds.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

Thanks for the link gharp, it is a good one.

Looking at a couple of these hands I'm starting to think it is a matter of too much cough medicine and selective memory rather than trickery into getting a lead out turn bet that I can raise for another bet.
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  #9  
Old 12-24-2005, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

you. must. bet. the. flop. big. pot. no. free. cards.
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  #10  
Old 12-24-2005, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

Yea, I'm getting the point. Lets play what if though. Say you are in late position and hit tp/tk on the flop. Multiple players check to you, if you bet the flop you will get called by a couple of players who think there hand is good. They will then c/c to the river unimproved so you get 2.5 bb leading out.

If you check the flop and induce a bet from someone out of position who thinks you missed the flop then raise them and they c/c to the river you get 3 bb. Is risking .5 bb to get an extra .5 bb worth it ever?

It strikes me as FPS but it's been something I've been thinking about recently. Probably follows the slow play rules though and in the long run isn't worth it.
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