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  #11  
Old 09-03-2005, 01:58 AM
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

[ QUOTE ]

In all honesty, try the beginner forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position. I know I am not using position to its full advantage.
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  #12  
Old 09-03-2005, 01:58 AM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

Let's look at this hand I just posted for a minute.

[ QUOTE ]
It's early on in level 3. I have about 1100 in the BB; there's a 'nothing special' EP limper, the 'nothing special' SB completes and I check Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

The flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The SB leads for 55 into the pot of 90. What's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's rule out folding and say I call or raise. My range for those two actions is gonna be a LOT of cards - any king, some big tens, a big diamond like this one, pair + draws, small flushes, you name it. If he comes over the top he will put me to a tough decision sometimes, but the times he gets called (my calling range vs. his 3 betting range) he is going to be losing very badly. If he just calls, I will be giving him fits on lots and lots of turns. In fact I would say he's best off folding a weak king to a raise.

Now let's say I am the SB. Do you think my hand is anywhere near as strong at all vs. a good BB, not to mention the limper? If you think it is, what am I going to do vs. a BB call or raise on 3/4 of turns?
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  #13  
Old 09-03-2005, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

Thanks, Tom! Very good stuff!
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2005, 02:03 AM
TomHimself TomHimself is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

no problem, nice post adanthar
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2005, 04:06 AM
prana prana is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

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I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position. I know I am not using position to its full advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but this is such an oxymoran..........if you don't understand position you ARE just a beginner and i don't care how many hours of poker or how many tournaments you have played it's that simple. It is an understanding concept that defines beginners from experienced players and frankly I have to agree with the person who directed you to the beginners forum because you are a beginer.
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  #16  
Old 09-03-2005, 05:01 AM
PrayingMantis PrayingMantis is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a beginner. I do well at poker. I just have this blind spot about position.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I'm not going to write a long post about position, simply beacause it is so fundamental. You can't do well at poker without understanding position. There are many many situations in which position is basically everything.

I don't know how helpful for you are the posts on this thread, as I didn't really read them. I have one practical suggestion though: try playing HU (tournies or cash). Obviously you have only 2 positions, so it's less "complicated". After playing for a while, if you put enough effort and thinking into it, you'll realize the huge different between those 2 positions, PF and on all other streets, and the improtant advantage of "position" (i.e, being last to act the majority of the time), except for in specific situations where it is turned around. I hope it helps.
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  #17  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'm not going to write a long post about position, simply beacause it is so fundamental. You can't do well at poker without understanding position. There are many many situations in which position is basically everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I earn $2-3000 per month playing poker, so I think I am doing well. But I don't have a good grasp of how best to utilize position. Think of it as a pitcher throwing 100 mph but not really knowing how to pitch (I'm not trying to brag just letting you know I play well but dont have a good grasp of position).

Your idea about playing HU is a good one. I can see how that would help. There are several very well thought out comments in this thread which have helped. Any other thoughts are of course much appreciated.
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  #18  
Old 09-03-2005, 07:30 AM
Bataglin Bataglin is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

Don't worry, somewhere down the line you will understand. It will sink in with experience. Then you can go back, take a look at this post and get a good laugh.
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  #19  
Old 09-03-2005, 09:50 AM
Kirkrrr Kirkrrr is offline
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

From some of the other posts I've read I think a good chunk of it has been covered, but I'll give you these simple scenarios:

You're in an early position with a marginal hand against 3 opponents, and decide to bet. First to you folds, next one raises, and the 3rd player re-raises. You, obviously, fold. Now suppose you're with the same hand but in the last position. First player now checks, second bets, third raises, and you quietly muck your marginal hand without ever having made that first bet and wasted your chips.

[ QUOTE ]
If you consider being checked to on the button as reliable information, you are subject to a check/call check/raise from someone who has flopped the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are, but the number of players who do that often is not that great, first of all. Secondly, again, if you are last to act and it's bet/call on a non draw-heavy board, you're done with the hand most of the time without wasting any more chips. If you're OUT OF POSITION and decide to take a stab at the pot and get called (but not raised) on a draw-heavy board now you have a difficult decision - fire again on the turn, or save it? If you decide not to, can you try to take it down again on the river? With position, a good opponent can slowplay a lot more effectively since he knows he'll have the last action so he can always value bet if checked to twice, or raise if bet into, and has less fear of getting nothing else out of the hand.

Hope this helps. It's way too early for 2+2 so I'm not sure how much sense, if any, I made.

Kirk
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2005, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: So what\'s so great about position?

So maybe I am getting this position thing. Since it was checked to me on the river, I figured noone had a boat. So I potted it so I didn't have to split the pot. I wasn't worried about MP2 since he only had a few dollars left. Rsiky but still a good example of position play.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter

BB ($25)
TexUgly ($24.15)
UTG+1 ($24.75)
MP1 ($26.30)
MP2 ($11.25)
CO ($5.05)
Button ($8.75)
SB ($42.15)

Preflop: TexUgly is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
TexUgly calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, FIGHT(33) calls $0.15, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.15) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">FIGHT(33) bets $1.2</font>, BB calls $1.20, TexUgly calls $1.20, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1.20.

Turn: ($5.95) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">FIGHT(33) bets $5.75</font>, BB calls $5.75, TexUgly calls $5.75, MP2 calls $5.75.

River: ($28.95) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
FIGHT(33) checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">TexUgly bets $16.95 (All-In)</font>, MP2 folds, FIGHT(33) folds, BB folds.

FIGHT(33) said, "this is bs"
FIGHT(33) said, "had nuts strght"

Final Pot: $45.90

SB has (straight, ace high).

Outcome: TexUgly wins $45.90. </font>
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