Why did Jesus have to die?

[hashi92]

lets put this another way.
imagine for instance your never read the bible.
you just knew that God was all powerful.
wouldnt it be logical to conclude that God could forgive the sins of man on a whim if he wanted to.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that you do not accept the authority of scripture. I do and I accept that it is accurate in all that it says about God and his creation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly and you put that before anything including god's omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I believe that what God says about himself is perfectly true and I also believe equally that God is omnipotent.

And yes, it does seem that we are going around in circles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. G-d could be omnipotent and require a blood sacrifice. However, one of two situations must be fulfilled for this to be the case:

1. G-d initiated the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
2. G-d did nothing to end the previously extent necessity of a blood sacrifice.

I believe your religious beliefs are getting in the way of you accepting reasonable arguments here. I believe you do not wish to slight your god. You shouldn't of course and I'm glad for your sake that you don't. However, you can't take away His resposibility for making a blood sacrifice necessary for the release from sin.

And while I really appreciate you making the first serious response to the original poster, you haven't accepted the (correct) assumptions in the OP's question.

A simple "I don't know" would have been the most honest and ideal response to his question. You can't slight your god, but at the same time he has placed an importance on making a trade of blood (life) for forgiveness (which is somehow inherited).


I'll tell you what I think.

Humans understand life and death extremely well.
Blood's importance gives it the (somewhat accurate) appearance of life force and it becomes associated with life and death.
Shedding of blood therefore becomes an appropriate metaphor to use in a book by a people in desperate need of something in which to believe to make up for their miserable lives (those people would be the Israelites). Much like the appearance of the Kabalists, religious zealotry gave a people hope and their lives meaning with promises of a less miserable time after their biological lives. The Torah scroll became a convenient means of transporting and proliferating that particular gospel.

Humans have shown a tremendous ability to adapt to a wide variety of situations. I would categorize the advent of religion as such an adaptation. It's a means of creating a fantasy to deal with material reality and it also satisfies the problem humans faced once we could conceptualize the notion that perhaps there is no point to our existence--that of something to believe in, of purpose.

That's what makes a lot of sense to me. I believe as an explanation is possesses internal consistency. I also believe as an explanation it is consistent with human history as it's largely understood.


I also see a problem with judging G-d from a human ethos. Sure, my ethos involves avoiding hurting others and causing them pain and making apparently unrelated sacrifices, but I don't think it's really fair to judge G-d from that perspective.


I will grant that this type of a situation certainly does make G-d appear to be an arbitrary and scary omnipotent entity, no different really than the omnipotent Billy Mumy character in the "It's a Good Life" episode of the Twilight Zone. It's all do what he wants, or else.

Excellent post.

[ QUOTE ]
I will grant that this type of a situation certainly does make G-d appear to be an arbitrary and scary omnipotent entity, no different really than the omnipotent Billy Mumy character in the "It's a Good Life" episode of the Twilight Zone. It's all do what he wants, or else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember that. I still eat peanut butter hamburgers to this day -- to make sure Billy doesn't get mad at me and cast me into eternal cartoon hell. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Hebrews 10:4 says that it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore Jesus Christ, the Son of God came into the world to bear our sins. The punishment we deserve is inflicted on the perfect spotless Lamb of God. Our faith in this sacrifice of Christ is the basis of God's forgiveness.

If I steal $10,000 from someone and am brought before a judge, his job is to render justice. He cannot just release me and say "not guilty". Justice is not done. Someone is still out $10,000. Similarly, God cannot simply pardon sin without payment of the penalty. It was an act of supreme love for God to offer his son to save those who believe in him. It was an act of supreme justice to sacrifice the perfectly sinless, willing son of God.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're overlooking that the only reason something is a sin is because "god" says so. When some steals $10,000, yeah some is out of money and there is harm. When someone sins, it's only a sin because god says so, and god has not been harmed. (If God was harmed, he wouldn't be omnipotent, would he?) So, god merely has to stop saying it's a sin and there's no more sin.

Religious beliefs are illogical in basis. Now this is different than saying there is or is not god, IMO. All I am saying is that you can't use logic to arrive at a conclusion that god exist. You have to ignore logic to get there. If you have faith, that's fine, but your faith is illogical, and you need to stop trying to convince others that your faith is logical. It isn't. Faith is, by definition, believing in something without proof of its existence. It is the opposite of logic by definition.

Oh yes... I reserve a special amount of contempt for people who rest their arguments on the bible's text. Obviously, if some one wants logic, the bible is not the place to find it. It's self-serving and based on "faith", which is not logic.

Try and think of an argument that has logic, don't quote your preacher's (or your dad's) favorite passage. It demonstrates that you are completely without the ability to think for yourself. By the way, that's why Jesus is your "shepherd" and you are his "sheep." You just can't think for yourself.

all men die

"You're overlooking that the only reason something is a sin is because "god" says so. When some steals $10,000, yeah some is out of money and there is harm. When someone sins, it's only a sin because god says so, and god has not been harmed. (If God was harmed, he wouldn't be omnipotent, would he?) So, god merely has to stop saying it's a sin and there's no more sin. "

Sin is something that God cannot do, and being keen on justice, He can't let people off. If God had intended there to be no sin, then there wouldn't be. He allowed it, for His own purposes, like seeing if people would choose God or choose sin.

Couldn't God, being all powerful chose to limit Himself to being able to do only that which is good?
I don't think this is what He actually did, I think God is unchanging, he is who he is, whole and perfect, holding everything together. Because of all God is, there are laws that are in place that govern these things, like sin.

"Even if eating the apple was a sin, it was Adam's sin and he is responsible -- not the rest of us. The way moral responsibility works is, people are responsible for their own wrongdoings, not the wrongdoings of others. So the rest of us don't need to be redeemed for Adam's "original" sin."

Each of us has our own sin we need to pay for, not Adam's.

"Even if we are somehow responsible for Adam's sin, we are the ones who must then redeem ourselves. You can't redeem someone else by dying for his sins. The guilty parties must redeem themselves by paying restitution to their victims, promising not to do it again, etc."

A question I'm still seeking an answer to.. how is it just that a perfect person pay for my sin? but I think justice is an eternal issue that won't get dealt with fully on Earth. It sounds like a cop out, but I believe everyone is judged for the wrong they do in heaven.

"And even if we could be redeemed by having Jesus take our punishment, Jesus didn't take our punishment. Our punishment was supposed to be hell, but Jesus ascended into heaven."

Hell is seperation from God. The other place, that has no place in heaven. I believe that Jesus was seperated from God and it's why he cried during the crucifixion "Abba, Father, Why have you forsaken me?" (forgotten me).
Yes, very true it wasn't for eternity, but God is without blemish. Very different to our position, can't really be compared.

A very good question indeed, good sir Bork.
One that I have been wrestling withpersonally, I was struck with the overwhelming sense that this message I believed in was based around a seeming injustice. Why don't I have to pay for the wrong I do? I asked..
I think justice works itself out though, through the laws that are in place by God. Repentance is what God wants, life change, transformation. He want's us to get beyond the point where we suff up. Knowing that I am forgiven by God because of Jesus doesn't make me feel pure and clean after I commit a sin. I'd say that understanding the price that was paid makes me more aware of the seriousness of sin and guilty when I commit a sin. I think that this guilt is part of paying for sin. I know many people who sin all day long and don't feel bad, but I KNOW when I sin. A conviction that is from the holy spirit, and neccessary in promoting repentance(life change).
I also believe that justice will be sorted out in heaven, mainly because the bible says so and I trust it. I think we will be confronted with our sins in heaven, but not seperated from God. Not everyone is the same rank(for want of a better word) in heaven. Jesus speaks of "causing one of these little one's to sin, " he says "it is better for that man to throw himself into the ocean with a millstone round his neck than face God". Not quoted straight from the bible, just memory... My point is he doesn't go easy on anyone's sin, and the sin you spoke of he gave special mention. He is repulsed by it as you are.

The reason why people respond when their God is put on trial is because to these people(myself included), you are saying a lot of things that are untrue about the God who we rely on to be saved. It is personal.
One thing I don't like is, atheists putting a lot of words together to sound intellectual. The goal of sharing one's point of view, should be speaking as simply as possible while retaining the truthfulness and wholeness of the view. Not dumbing it down, but speaking so people can understand, not just those in you inner circle of big brainers.

The things that are untrue are things like, that I would look down on you. Jesus commands us not to see myself more highly than I ought, but to see myself with sober judgement(not lesser than I ought). Maturity in christians should display itself in love for others, when asked, Jesus said the greatest commands were to "Love God" and "Love people".
I think that if the teachings of Jesus such as these, were removed form the world it would make it a much worse place to live. In response to --"That there would only be rape, murder and other mayhem if they were not kept in check by their religion."

I think maturity is a goal that God wants us to accomplish, taking the focus off our selves(a baby, completely dependant, can only recieve) to others(Jesus Christ, freely gives unselfishly).